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Thread: The Joey Votto Thread

  1. #46
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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    Joey has been very impressive so far, and I am glad to see the Reds seem to be getting him plenty of playing time. I would hope he will be the starting first baseman for the Reds starting next year.

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  3. #47
    Battle Toad Historian thatcoolguy_22's Avatar
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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AmarilloRed View Post
    Joey has been very impressive so far, and I am glad to see the Reds seem to be getting him plenty of playing time. I would hope he will be the starting first baseman for the Reds starting next year.
    As do I but I do NOT want him in LF and Will Ferrel's twin brother off the squad. Hopefully we can find a taker for Hatteburg. I mean he has his own chapter in the book "Moneyball" for christ's sake!
    that has to be worth 2 golden tickets to willie wonka's factory in itself...
    "Last week I helped my friend stay put. It's a lot easier'n helpin' 'em move. I just went over to his house and made sure that he did not start to load **** into a truck."

  4. #48
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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BucksandReds View Post
    you can't pay two outfielders 13 and 14 million (even though Jr gets alot later you still have to pay it.) That is what a mentally handicapped baboon would do in our market. You basially guarantee yourself to have no chance. Around 40% of your payroll in 2 highly imperfect players (one of them wa over the hill and the other a very good but also very flawed awful defensive, strikeout machine.) You must get rid of one of them in the offseason.
    This "we can't afford to X/Y/Z" argument is total Horse Poo.

    You can pay two outfielders 13 and 6.5 M (what the Reds actually pay Griffey - about $11M if you count how much the deferred money actually counts in Today's $$). We paid for them this year - $2.5M less.

    You CAN do that if you have 20 other guys making 300-500K.
    You can play Dunn, Griffey, and Alex Gonzalez to be your "vets" next year, and the only starting positional players making over $1M. EE, BP - although arbitration eligible, Hamilton, Votto, all of our pitchers not named Harang, Arroyo or Weathers, all make less than $1M per year.

    This years FA crop is a total wasteland. You play for next year, and trade Griffey late in the year - because you are NOT picking up his 2009 option at $16.5M - you replace him with Jay Bruce and go after a Front-Line SP in the 2009 FA pool.

    What you DON'T want to do is pay Ryan Freel $2.5M to sit on the DL all year or flop around the OF and hit .250.

    Votto is going to play 1B. By all accounts, he makes Adam Dunn look like a sober white guy in LF.

    PEACE

    -BLEEDS

  5. #49
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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    You have such a way with words BLEEDS. I do agree that we can afford to pay Dunn and Griffey next year, and have Bruce take Griffey's place in RF in 2009. I also think Keppinger will take Freel's pace as Super-Sub, but Freel can still be a reserve outfielder. He may simply have had a bad year this year. Votto should be our future first baseman. I really hope he is not in left field.

  6. #50
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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    Votto went 1 for 3 tonight, which included a 3 run HR. Unfortunately that was the extent of our scoring tonight, so we lost the game.

  7. #51
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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    2 for 4 today, including a double. He also struck out twice.

  8. #52
    Senor Votto Degenerate39's Avatar
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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    All Votto does is hit
    Most Vottomatic Player

  9. #53
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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    Don't trade him! You need cheap guys with huge upside. Call me an idiot all you want but we'll lose with a team of fairly compensated veterans 99 times out of 100. To compete at our payroll you need as many overproducing young guys as possible. It would be better to see a team of 9 Joey Vottos fall on their face than the inevitable 9 Adam Dunn's. At least you would have a chance at spending some money fixing our real problems with the 9 Joey Vottos. If I see us hit above league average 1 more year while pitching at the very bottom of the league again I will cry. I understand in our park we'll never be at the top of the league but we are not even remotely competitive in the pitching department. Votto should stay unless someone offers you a legit young starter straight up. You'll say that pitchers have more value but Votto's realistic upside is All Star level of play. I'd rather dump Griffey or Dunn for anything resembling a 3 or 4starter so that in two years were not left with 1 pitching prospect and no Dunn, Griffey or Votto which would be a real possibility if we trade Votto. We need to release our overpaid veterans and let the youngsters get a chance. The old guys on the roster haven't gotten it done. Lets save some money in hitting (where we can affod to performance wise) and spend it on pitching which we can aquire via trade. I'd rather overpay on a 1-2 year contract for a decent starter acquired via trade then run out there with Griffey, Dunn and no pitching like we have the last several seasons.

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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BLEEDS View Post
    This "we can't afford to X/Y/Z" argument is total Horse Poo.

    You can pay two outfielders 13 and 6.5 M (what the Reds actually pay Griffey - about $11M if you count how much the deferred money actually counts in Today's $$). We paid for them this year - $2.5M less.

    You CAN do that if you have 20 other guys making 300-500K.
    You can play Dunn, Griffey, and Alex Gonzalez to be your "vets" next year, and the only starting positional players making over $1M. EE, BP - although arbitration eligible, Hamilton, Votto, all of our pitchers not named Harang, Arroyo or Weathers, all make less than $1M per year.

    This years FA crop is a total wasteland. You play for next year, and trade Griffey late in the year - because you are NOT picking up his 2009 option at $16.5M - you replace him with Jay Bruce and go after a Front-Line SP in the 2009 FA pool.

    What you DON'T want to do is pay Ryan Freel $2.5M to sit on the DL all year or flop around the OF and hit .250.

    Votto is going to play 1B. By all accounts, he makes Adam Dunn look like a sober white guy in LF.

    PEACE

    -BLEEDS

    For an organization and city that has only seen good offensive players and a losing team for the last 10 years, I think spending that much money an an OF is incredulous.

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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BLEEDS View Post
    This "we can't afford to X/Y/Z" argument is total Horse Poo.

    You can pay two outfielders 13 and 6.5 M (what the Reds actually pay Griffey - about $11M if you count how much the deferred money actually counts in Today's $$).
    Really so 2 million of it just drops off the face of the earth considering that in less than 1 and 1/2 years we have to pay 5.5% interest on every nickel of the deferred money? He's making 13 million total and 5.5% interest on 6.5 million of that. You realize that you do have to pay your debts right? Thats 26 Million+ in 2 outfielders on a team that will spend about 70-75 million total. At about 350,000 each we can run out Josh Hamilton 900+ OPS + base running ability + arm + fielding ability and Votto minor league OPS near 900 + huge upside + no worse on the bases or in the field than Dunn. I am not advocating Votto as a permanent outfielder. I am advocating him in the outfield untill Bruce is up (that may not be long.) Hatteburg is not a horrible option at 1B for 1/2 or even 1 more year. You trade or dump Dunn or Griffey this offseason. I'm not just worried about 08. I think that we can still contend in 08 without mortgaging our future (Votto.)

  12. #56
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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    I would not expect Votto in LF barring injury or a trade. I hear he needs lots of work as an outfielder.

  13. #57
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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AmarilloRed View Post
    I would not expect Votto in LF barring injury or a trade. I hear he needs lots of work as an outfielder.
    The Reds don't need another outfielder.
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  14. #58
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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    Dunn is only signed through this year, with an option for 2008, and Griffey through 2008 with an option for 2009. The starting outfield for 2009 could be Hamilton , Bruce, and . . I hope Dunn is re-signed , but we could be in trouble in the OF if he doesn't.

  15. #59
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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BucksandReds View Post
    Really so 2 million of it just drops off the face of the earth considering that in less than 1 and 1/2 years we have to pay 5.5% interest on every nickel of the deferred money? He's making 13 million total and 5.5% interest on 6.5 million of that.
    I think you are confusing the details. The $13M I referenced was for Dunn's 2008 Option.

    KGJ's contract leaves a bit to argument. But not as much.

    FACT: KGJ's contract calls for 112.5M for 9 years (2000-2008), an average of $12.5M per year, and a $16.5M option for 2009 with a $4M buyout.

    FACT: KGJ gets PAID $6.0M in salary these days (was $7M in 2000, $6M from 2001-2008).

    FACT: KGJ gets $57.5M in DEFERRED money, starting in 2009 -payable over 16 years. That's roughly $3.6M per year.

    DEBATEABLE: Interest, "Present Value", Against Luxury Tax

    -Most say the interest doesn't start until 2009. I've seen it referenced by Reds as 4%.
    -At the time (2000) the Present Value of the deal was estimated at $9.2/9.3M
    -Some Sources say the Reds estimate it at $11.3M for Payroll Purposes
    -Jr's Agent, Brian Goldberg, says the Reds estimate it at $3-$3.5M for the Deferred portion - based upon the MLB , this was in 2003.


    SO, he's not "Making $13M total, with 5.5% Interest on a portion of it". He's making $6.0M per year, and the Reds account for $3-$3.5M per year for "put aside" money to account for the Deferred payments. What that means is they "PAY" ~$9.5M so that in 2009-2024 and beyond they don't "PAY" anything - other than maybe the $4M in 2009 Payroll for his buy-out.

    Either way, it's been pretty good for the Reds, even if you counted it at $11M per year for 10 years. Sure, he's about done now, but $11M a year for KGJ is a virtual bargain compared to other contracts.

    SOOOooo, back to the Original point, you CAN afford to pay an Adam Dunn at market value, especially when you consider he's 27 and everyone else on the team - outside of two pitchers and a SS - make less than $5M, and 90% of those people make less than .

    In fact, Harang and Arroyo's 2008 salaries are less than $10M, only kicking up over $10M in 2009 - when KGJ is due to come off the books (coincidence? I think not).

    This team isn't as Payroll-Strapped as you think. They also turn a profit, and guys like Castellini know, with as Loyal as the Reds fans are, you start WINNING and they will put more butts in more seats - and drink more beer, and eat more popcorn, etc... - they did it with KGJ, he MORE than paid for himself. You can spend more money on payroll and - GASP - MAKE MORE MONEY as a result, if you win.

    PEACE

    -BLEEDS

  16. #60
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    Re: The Joey Votto Thread

    All this about Griffey and Dunn is very interesting, but is not really relevant to this thread unless Griffey or Dunn is traded and Joey Votto has to move to the outfield.


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