Sources: Camera confiscated after claims of Pats spying on Jets

[WVRed]

As far as losing the draft pick goes, the Patriots already hold SF's first rounder in 2008. You have to figure that pick will be higher than the one the Patriots will hold.

[M2]

Just for comparison sake:

Dallas assistant coach Wade Wilson got suspended five games and fined $100,000 this month for using the banned substance HGH to treat impotency, Goodell told him coaches have to be held to a higher standard.

Belichick was found guilty by Judge Goodell of "a calculated and deliberate attempt'' to evade the spirit and letter of the NFL rules.

He was not suspended. So much for "higher standards."

You're forgetting something. The Patriots are good and the Cowboys are bad.

Patriot Act, man. You don't have to do righteous things. You just have to be righteous.

[Yachtzee]

Dr. Z's article made me think about why this is a crime different than good ole stealing signals, and I guess it comes down to the use of technology that allows the Pats to go beyond human capabilities. Sure, you can cite examples of signs stealing in sports with signs, or the ability to humanly devise a system to accurately predict what another team is going to do, but here it is the wrong use of technology. If I can think of a good analogy, they have basically looked at the other player's cards with a video camera in a hand of blackjack and know exactly what to do with their cards after the dealer has taken measures (multiple decks and other precautions to make card counting very, very difficult to humanly impossible, unless its Rainman, of course) to prevent the other side having an unfair advantage in the game. None of Dr. Z's example go past the level of counting cards. The Pats have seen that the opponent is sitting on 15 hoping for the dealer to bust.

I liken it to baseball teams stealing signs using a guy with a video camera in the outfield. Stealing signs by paying attention when the catcher drops his guard is one thing, stealing them using a centerfield camera is dirty pool. What makes it more damning is that, in baseball there are fewer signs needed, so it's easier change the signals if they get stolen. There are so many signals involved in football that signal stealing is a much bigger deal. A team can't just change their entire defensive signals in the middle of a game.

I suspect that the video is used to crack the code and then certain coaches and/or players are told what signals to look for and what they mean. I could imagine they have someone breaking down the signals from the first quarter during the second quarter and relaying the results to the sideline, so that the coaches can start looking for certain signals. By halftime, they might have most of the common play signals cracked. If it's a division rival, you have the added bonus that you play them again, so you already know what they use. Then, if they find out, as Dr. Z's sources say, the team has to spend the week coming up with new signals when they could be spending that time preparing the team for the game.

[Ltlabner]

I must say, as someone who doesn't give a rip about Football in any shape form or fashion, it's intresting to read everybodies take on what has transpired.

I will say this however, I know what people are saying when they claim $500,000 is nothing to a millionare. Until they are said millionare and have to write the check. It's always easy to spend/give away other people's money. (again, I know what they are saying...it's a drop in the bucket compared to his bank account).

Anyway, please resume bickering.

[MaineRed]

Here's a thought, the commish thinks what Wade Wilson did is worse than what Belichick did?

Everyone is just assuming that the Pats knew exactly what was coming on every play. Heck some are even willing to go back 5 or 6 years and assume they've know what is coming on every play in every game since Belichick got there. It is a total guess.

Has there been any concrete proof that this scheme was actually utilized and for how many plays it was used for? All I've heard is what is on the tape. I haven't heard anything other than opinions on what effect the tape had.

Maybe that is why the penalty was what it was. Maybe they were taping the other coaches. But maybe the info wasn't used as much as people think or perhaps not at all. Not saying this is the case, just that I have no idea one way or another. Perhaps that is why the penalty was what it was.

I really think people are giving the Pats way too much credit to assume that they can figure out what the Jets are running, relay the info to the person who then has to compute the right play to be used to beat whatever defense has been called. Is there enough time between plays to figure all that out and then get the right personnel on the field without looking like you can't figure out what play to run every time? At some point wouldn't we catch on to the fact that the Pats destroy everyone but yet never seem to have the right guys on the field, are always scrambling around at the last minute? Seems like they would lead the league in delay of game trying to do so much in such short period of time. And Brady autibles less than half as much as Peyton does.

Hmmmmmmm.

[redsfanmia]

And Brady autibles less than half as much as Peyton does.

Hmmmmmmm.

Are you trying to say the Colts cheat as well?

[Yachtzee]

Are you trying to say the Colts cheat as well?

Didn't the Colts get caught pumping in extra crowd noise through the PA system? Not quite the same level of cheating, but cheating just the same.

[SteelSD]

Every person who tries to steal an opponent's signals, in any sport, by any means, whether those means are expressly forbidden by the rules of that sport or not, whether brazenly or surreptitiously, is doing the exact same thing: attempting to gain an unfair competitive advantage. There's nothing morally superior about using lesser technology to try to do the same thing, it's all attempting to gain an unfair competitive advantage.

No to infinity. Seeing real-time visual cues with the naked eye is an accepted risk in any sport. Stealing signs that way may result in an advantage, but that's an understood risk and there is NO rule preventing that sort of behavior. If someone can stand across a football field and eyball signals, match them up with offensive or defensive play calling, and then provide that information to their team, then that's the opponent's fault. Everyone has the same access to that data. Football teams consistently analyze field shots of plays in-game in an effort to understand sets, matchups, and propensities. Again, everyone has access to that data.

What New England has done, apparently for years, is way WAY beyond that. It's quite clear that Bill Belichick felt entitled to prohibited information. His actions represent one of the most profound acts of cheating in any sport ever and it's likely resulted in past division, playoff, and Super Bowl wins the Pats simply wouldn't have had they played within the rules of the game. It was so wrong that one of Belichick's former assistants (Mangini) who worked with him from 1997 to 2005 was compelled to expose the blatant cheating. If my favorite team was caught doing that, I'd be supporting the same penalties I've suggested earlier.

Here's what Roger Goodell wrote in his letter to the Patriots:

http://www.courant.com/sports/footba...c_tab01_layout

"This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field,"

His letter to a team that complained about someone eyeballing their defensive schemes and stealing their signals sans camera or binoculars while being over 50 yards away from the signal caller would likely read:

You're stupid. Don't bother me again.

And here's Belichick in his "apology":

"My interpretation of a rule in the Constitution and Bylaws was incorrect."

This is what NFL policy says:

The NFL policy states that "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game" and that all video shooting locations for coaching purposes "must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

Here's what the September 6, 2006 (I was wrong about the recency) reminder memo to NFL head coaches and GM's said:

"Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

So, Bill had a camera guy on the field. Check. And that guy was headed to the locker room prior to being detained. Check. Wow. That's one heck of a misinterpretation.

And there's no way they could ever really know what plays were coming. I know that's what they were trying to do, anyone who steals signals is trying to do that, it's just that other teams are fully aware that many of their opponents, if not all of them, are trying to do it and take the steps necessary to make sure they can't. I mean, if this was really doable, they'd have never lost a game, and they'd certainly never have lost an important game for lack of a 1st down.

They couldn't know what plays were coming? C'mon. The entire exercise was to twist probability to the Pats via illegal means. The whole "they'd never have lost a game" argument falls flat as the Pats would still need to be able to execute. This is a team famous for halftime adjustments. At minimum, cheating head coach with mediocre talent tells cameraman to head to the locker room at halftime with all sorts of prohibited information. Head coach disseminates information to players. Team comes out of halftime with a competitive advantage not available to the opponent.

Figure it out.

[Hoosier Red]

Didn't the Colts get caught pumping in extra crowd noise through the PA system? Not quite the same level of cheating, but cheating just the same.

Pittsburgh accused them of that, but it was a pretty laughable whiny excuse.
And no, the league did not catch them at it.

[gonelong]

I will say this however, I know what people are saying when they claim $500,000 is nothing to a millionare. Until they are said millionare and have to write the check. It's always easy to spend/give away other people's money. (again, I know what they are saying...it's a drop in the bucket compared to his bank account).

Agreed, I bet his wife doesn't think it's insignificant.

GL

[traderumor]

One thing it does is make the play card mouth hiding routine not look quite so unwarranted. I would imagine the Pats would have Marlee Matlin on the sideline every week shooting video and reading lips.

[redsfanmia]

Didn't the Colts get caught pumping in extra crowd noise through the PA system? Not quite the same level of cheating, but cheating just the same.

Actually they were just accusations and weak ones at that. The dome is so loud I cant see how anyone could distinquish between real noise and "piped in noise".

[RedsBaron]

What New England has done, apparently for years, is way WAY beyond that. It's quite clear that Bill Belichick felt entitled to prohibited information. His actions represent one of the most profound acts of cheating in any sport ever and it's likely resulted in past division, playoff, and Super Bowl wins the Pats simply wouldn't have had they played within the rules of the game. It was so wrong that one of Belichick's former assistants (Mangini) who worked with him from 1997 to 2005 was compelled to expose the blatant cheating. If my favorite team was caught doing that, I'd be supporting the same penalties I've suggested earlier.

Good post. Solely from a football standpoint, what Belichick did is far worse than any of the sins of Michael Vick, Chris Henry, et al. Vick's mistreatment of dogs was disgusting and illegal, but the Falcons gained no improper competitive advantage from Vick's activities.
Belichick intentionally broke the rules of the game, repeatedly, and his misconduct calls into question the legitimacy of Super Bowl championships. He has attacked the integrity of the results on the field.
Given the suspensions that the NFL has handed out to players for off-the-field misconduct that did not affect the integrity of the on-the-field results, how can the NFL justify the wrist slap given to Belichick? The more that I have thought about this, the more I believe that Belichick should have received a suspension for a full NFL season.

[GAC]

how can the NFL justify the wrist slap given to Belichick? The more that I have thought about this, the more I believe that Belichick should have received a suspension for a full NFL season.

I agree; but the NFL is far more concerned about protecting themselves as a whole. They're treating it like the MLB heirarchy would do - slap them on the wrist, act outraged that something like this would occur (like steroids), and hope it's enough to make it go away.

[MaineRed]

For anyone shocked by this story, what do you think ALL of those coaches are doing when they put the clipboard up in front of their mouth before they talk?

Are all of them hiding their words from Bill Belichick?

Coaches are aware that others may be watching to gain an edge. They are so paranoid that they cover their face because they think someone with lip reading skills might be watching and immedietly be able to relay to their team what play is coming. And they've been doing it forever.

I don't see how what Mangini did is honorable. If the guy had a problem with it and knew about it going on in New England when he was there, why didn't he speak up then? If he is the one who turned the Pats in because he was part of the same thing in New England, why didn't he come clean and hand over HIS Super Bowl rings? Some of you want the league to take away Belichicks.

If Mangini is responsible for this based on his knowledge from New England (which we don't know btw) then he is no different than Jose Canseco at this point, wating to speak up about the roids until it would benefit him to do so.