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Thread: Trade Idea (Reds-Giants)

  1. #1
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Trade Idea (Reds-Giants)

    Any time there's a trade proposal, it's always heavily criticized. I've got thick skin, so go ahead and let 'er rip. Here goes nothing . . .

    (And yes, I realize that due to Dunn's contract, this trade would most likely have to wait until June, unfortunately.)

    Reds trade:
    Adam Dunn
    Scott Hatteberg
    Edwin Encarnacion
    Alex Gonzalez

    Giants trade:
    Matt Cain
    Jonathan Sanchez
    Chad Santos
    Craig Whitaker

    The Reds' resulting roster:
    Code:
     2.525  C David Ross
     1.325  C Javier Valentin
     0.400 1B Joey Votto
    ?1.300 1B Jorge Cantu
    ?3.800 2B Brandon Phillips
     0.400 IF Pedro Lopez
     3.000 3B Ryan Freel
     0.975 IF Juan Castro
     0.400 SS Jeff Keppinger
     0.400 LF Josh Hamilton
     0.400 CF Norris Hopper
    12.500 RF Ken Griffey, Jr.
     0.400 OF Chris Dickerson
    
     6.750 SP Aaron Harang
     0.700 SP Matt Cain
     6.450 SP Bronson Arroyo
    ?1.400 SP Matt Belisle
     0.400 SP Homer Bailey
    
     2.750 CL David Weathers
     0.400 RP Jared Burton
     0.400 RP Bill Bray
     0.400 RP Jonathan Sanchez
     3.000 RP Mike Stanton
     0.400 RP Gary Majewski
     0.925 RP Todd Coffey
    ------------------------------
    51.800
    ? = estimate due to arbitration eligibility
    Why this trade makes sense for the Giants:
    1B Ryan Klesko, SS Omar Vizquel, 3B Pedro Feliz, and LF Barry Bonds all have expiring contracts. That means they'll need to re-sign or replace half their starting lineup by next year. Seeing as how they're the oldest team in MLB, they probably wouldn't mind getting younger by adding Dunn and Encarnacion. Also, starting pitching is arguably their biggest strength. They'd still have Zito, Lowry, and Lincecum, which is a formidable one-through-three part of the rotation.

    Why this trade makes sense for the Reds:
    Matt Cain would be considered an ace in many starting rotations, and as always, the Reds are in need of pitching. Jonathan Sanchez is a young, left-handed reliever who can strike out guys fairly often. He also has some potential as a starter. Craig Whitaker is a former first round pick who seems to be a bust. He struggles with control and staying healthy, but if the Reds can find a way to keep him on the field and in the strike zone, he might become very effective. Chad Santos doesn't project to be more than a backup first baseman, but if Joey Votto becomes injured, he could be a good guy to have around. Even if Votto stays healthy, he would be some needed organizational filler.

    The Reds would no doubt be losing a good deal of offense in this trade, but with the likes of Freel, Keppinger, and Hopper handy, it's still a solid offense, in my opinion. Also, with Dunn gone, the starting lineup would become less left-handed and offer a lot more versatility in every facet of the game.

    Another thing worth noting is that the money saved (nearly $20M) could be used to go after a centerfielder (Torri Hunter, Corey Patterson, Aaron Rowand, etc.), an infielder (David Eckstein, Juan Uribe, Mike Lowell, etc.), and/or relief help (Francisco Cordero, Octavio Dotel, LaTroy Hawkins, Scott Linebrink, Kerry Wood, etc.). Okay, now it's your turn to tell me why I'm crazy and/or an idiot. What do you all think?

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  4. #3
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Trade Idea

    Incoming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    All kidding aside, I'm not sure how easy it would be to pry three arms with high upsides in sum from the league let alone from a single organisation. Also, wouldn't left field be really crowded for the Giants if this trade went through?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Trade Idea

    I can't see a circumstance where we could ever trade any of our player's for a pitcher with the upside of Matt Cain. We could sign Dunn to a long term contract right this second, then tell the Giants "Look, if you take him in this deal, we'll pay every penny of his contract, you've got him for free!!!" and they still wouldn't do it in my opinion. Potential aces just aren't given up in today's market.

  6. #5
    Greatness In The Making RedLegSuperStar's Avatar
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    Re: Trade Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    Potential aces just aren't given up in today's market.
    I'm not knocking you in any way..

    Brad Penny was offered for Adam Dunn last offseason.. Roy Oswalt, Dontrell Willis, Erik Bedard, Joe Blanton, and some Bronson Arroyo guy.. were rumored in one trade rumor or another. Now granted those are rumors.. but don't tell me a team won't trade a "potential" ace for a need.

    Cain lifetime is 22-27 w/ 3.79 ERA. In his defense I don't think the Giants score enough runs when he pitches.. which leaves Cain to rely on his strikeouts. Lifetime his opponent batting average is .222.

    Now back to what you said that aces are given up in todays market. Before last year Oliver Perez was the Pirates ace.. he fell off the face of the Earth so to speak last year and was sent down and then thrown in a deal with the Mets. Mark Mulder and Tim Hudson were dealt for prospects before there walk year. As long as there is two sides that come to an agreement; teams will deal whomever.
    "I could watch video of Griffey swinging all day. It's like baseball porn." - C. Trent Rosecrans


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    Re: Trade Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    I can't see a circumstance where we could ever trade any of our player's for a pitcher with the upside of Matt Cain. We could sign Dunn to a long term contract right this second, then tell the Giants "Look, if you take him in this deal, we'll pay every penny of his contract, you've got him for free!!!" and they still wouldn't do it in my opinion. Potential aces just aren't given up in today's market.

    A prepaid Dunn would certainly get you a Cain.

  8. #7
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Trade Idea

    I'd love to get Matt Cain, but Hopper, Keppinger, and Freel in the everyday lineup scares the crap out of me.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Re: Trade Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I'd love to get Matt Cain, but Hopper, Keppinger, and Freel in the everyday lineup scares the crap out of me.
    Not being critical, but the Reds pitching staff scares the . . . out of me.

  10. #9
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Trade Idea

    those kind of trades don't happen in June (or later in the season). In addition, Gonzo and Hatty have no real value.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  11. #10
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Trade Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Not being critical, but the Reds pitching staff scares the . . . out of me.
    A trade like that would simply make hitting our glaring weakness instead of pitching. Preventing 100 runs doesn't really help if you have to score 100 fewer runs to do it.

    I know you have to give up value to get value, but I'm just not sure I'd want to do it all in 1 big step like this.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  12. #11
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Trade Idea

    I'm all in favor of the Reds acquiring a guy named Whitaker.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  13. #12
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    Re: Trade Idea

    I could see a Dunn for Cain deal happening and here is why......

    The Giants are looking to get younger next season and most likely Bonds is out of there. They need a big offensive bat to replace him and Dunn could be that guy. Of course the Reds would have to give the Giants a window so they could see if they could sign Dunn to a contract extension.

    The Reds would get a solid three in their rotation with Harang, Arroyo and Cain. Add Bailey as the fourth starter and this could be a solid starting rotation. With Josh Hamilton's numerous injuries, don't you think he would be better off in LF than CF? You would still have Freel and Hopper to handle the CF chores plus you need one of these two players at the leadoff spot. Griffey would still be in RF but we know he is just keeping that spot warm for Jay Bruce.

    So I guess you could expand the deal but one that involves Cain and Dunn does make sense for both clubs.
    If you think small, you'll go nowhere in life.

  14. #13
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Trade Idea

    The only problem with that Krusty is

    1.) Dunn would have to agree to the trade given his full no trade until June 15th -- and why would he want to spend 1 year on a crappy team in a pitcher's park before FA?
    2.) Why would the Giants trade 4 years of Matt Cain for 1 year of Dunn?

    Sure, I'd do a straight up Dunn/Cain deal in heartbeat, but I think it would have to be more like Dunn & (non-Bailey/Cueto pitching prospect).
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  15. #14
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Trade Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    A trade like that would simply make hitting our glaring weakness instead of pitching. Preventing 100 runs doesn't really help if you have to score 100 fewer runs to do it.

    I know you have to give up value to get value, but I'm just not sure I'd want to do it all in 1 big step like this.
    I agree that offense could become a weakness, but I think hitting is much easier to obtain than pitching (especially in free agency). With that said, the $15M-$20M saved in the deal could be used for acquiring a couple bats and a reliever.

  16. #15
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    Re: Trade Idea

    If Dunn is traded -Norris Hopper is not a reg in the outfield Jay Bruce is. Why would you start a 29 year old , journeyman singles hitter over a 21 year old Bruce? Jay gets an everyday job until he proves he can't handle it. Personally I think he would prove he is ready.

    In addition Bruce even at 6'2 218 is a better outfielder than Hopper with a far superior arm.


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