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Thread: Since 1977, only one player has cracked the REDS Top-10 in Total Bases.

  1. #1
    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
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    Since 1977, only one player has cracked the REDS Top-10 in Total Bases.

    That would be Dave Parker's 350 Total Bases in 1985.

    The Top-Ten All-Time Single-Season Records for Total Bases by a Cincinnati RED since 1870:

    Total Bases

    Rank Player............. TB...... Year
    1.... George Foster..... 388...... 1977
    2.... Frank Robinson.... 380...... 1962
    3.... Ted Kluszewski.... 368...... 1954
    4.... Ted Kluszewski.... 358...... 1955
    5.... Johnny Bench...... 355...... 1970
    6.... Dave Parker........ 350...... 1985
    7.... Tony Perez......... 346...... 1970
    8.... Wally Post.......... 345...... 1955
    9.... Vada Pinson........ 335...... 1963
    10.. Frank Robinson..... 333...... 1961


    Brandon Phillips has a chance, though a small one, to be only the 2nd Player to crack this list since 1977.

    Through Thursday's game Phillips had 307 Total Bases. He needs 26 Total Bases over the last 9 games to tie for 10th. He's 0-3 tonight.

    Add his Gold Glove play at 2nd Base and his 30+ Stolen Bases (with 80% success rate), and his 12 HBP's and shows what a special season he is having.
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

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  3. #2
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    Re: Since 1977, only one player has cracked the REDS Top-10 in Total Bases.

    i think if the Reds would have won the division, Brandon gets MVP votes!!

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    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Since 1977, only one player has cracked the REDS Top-10 in Total Bases.

    It is neat to see Phillips reaching the heights that only superstar players have reached. We have heard him compared to 2B Joe Morgan a lot recently. Now he is being compared to other truly awesome players at other positions.

    Adam Dunn is only 20 TB behind Phillips despite having 109 fewer at-bats. If you factor walks into the equation Dunn has 389 total bases to 341 for Phillips. If you also add in stolen bases minus caught stealing then Dunn has 396 and Phillips has 365.

    If you really want to go crazy you can factor in sac bunts, sac flies, hit-by-pitches, reaching 1B after a strikeout, and grounding into double plays. Sacrifices advance another runner at your expense, so in effect you "gained" a total base for the team. Hitting into double plays causes a loss of a total base that someone else gained (you made 2 outs in one plate appearance), so it makes sense to deduct one from the hitters total as a penalty. Factoring in these numbers makes the totals 393 for Dunn and 358 for Phillips.

    Total Bases as a stat does not include bases gained by the walk. So using TB as a barometer of performance tends to inflate the value of low-OBP guys at the expense of players that frequently walk (and are therefore less likely to make outs).

    Why shouldn't a walk count as a "total base" gained?

    Historically the walk was usually viewed as a failure for the pitcher rather than a success for the hitter. In recent years, sabermetric analysis has proven the value of the walk as a tool for producing runs. Teams that walk a lot tend to score more runs.

    The walk is not just an accident anymore -- it is a worthy goal in itself for a plate appearance, and is an effective tool for hitters to use to increase their offensive production.

    We as educated observers of the game should gravitate toward statistics that credit players appropriately for walking. Batting average and total bases are seriously flawed statistics due to their lack of credit for walks. (of course batting average has other major flaws too).

  5. #4
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Since 1977, only one player has cracked the REDS Top-10 in Total Bases.

    Total bases isn't a flawed stat, it just can't be looked at by itself to determine the value of a player.

  6. #5
    So Long Uncle Joe BoydsOfSummer's Avatar
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    Re: Since 1977, only one player has cracked the REDS Top-10 in Total Bases.

    Three hunnerd bases is strong anytime. Total bases+walks rate is a nice stat and paints a better picture.

    Improving his walk rate will put him in elite status. If he improves it enough he'll be in Little Joe territory. I believe he will as he matures as a player, although not in Morgan's class. Improving his plate discipline can only elevate his game.
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    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Since 1977, only one player has cracked the REDS Top-10 in Total Bases.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Total Bases as a stat does not include bases gained by the walk.

    That's crazy.
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    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Since 1977, only one player has cracked the REDS Top-10 in Total Bases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    That's crazy.
    It's ridiculous, a walk is a BASE on balls, and it doesn't count?

    Go Gators!

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    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
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    Re: Since 1977, only one player has cracked the REDS Top-10 in Total Bases.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    It is neat to see Phillips reaching the heights that only superstar players have reached. We have heard him compared to 2B Joe Morgan a lot recently. Now he is being compared to other truly awesome players at other positions.

    Adam Dunn is only 20 TB behind Phillips despite having 109 fewer at-bats. If you factor walks into the equation Dunn has 389 total bases to 341 for Phillips. If you also add in stolen bases minus caught stealing then Dunn has 396 and Phillips has 365.

    If you really want to go crazy you can factor in sac bunts, sac flies, hit-by-pitches, reaching 1B after a strikeout, and grounding into double plays. Sacrifices advance another runner at your expense, so in effect you "gained" a total base for the team. Hitting into double plays causes a loss of a total base that someone else gained (you made 2 outs in one plate appearance), so it makes sense to deduct one from the hitters total as a penalty. Factoring in these numbers makes the totals 393 for Dunn and 358 for Phillips.

    Total Bases as a stat does not include bases gained by the walk. So using TB as a barometer of performance tends to inflate the value of low-OBP guys at the expense of players that frequently walk (and are therefore less likely to make outs).

    Why shouldn't a walk count as a "total base" gained?

    Historically the walk was usually viewed as a failure for the pitcher rather than a success for the hitter. In recent years, sabermetric analysis has proven the value of the walk as a tool for producing runs. Teams that walk a lot tend to score more runs.

    The walk is not just an accident anymore -- it is a worthy goal in itself for a plate appearance, and is an effective tool for hitters to use to increase their offensive production.

    We as educated observers of the game should gravitate toward statistics that credit players appropriately for walking. Batting average and total bases are seriously flawed statistics due to their lack of credit for walks. (of course batting average has other major flaws too).
    Dude! Who cares? I'm just talking about Total Bases. I'm not looking for a frickin' argument. Can't a guy (Phillips) get a little praise without someone criticizing the praise?
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

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    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Since 1977, only one player has cracked the REDS Top-10 in Total Bases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_Davis View Post
    Dude! Who cares? I'm just talking about Total Bases. I'm not looking for a frickin' argument. Can't a guy (Phillips) get a little praise without someone criticizing the praise?
    I wasn't arguing or criticizing anything. I praised Phillips in the first paragraph and agreed with you that Phillips is having an awesome year comparable to many Reds greats. Then I said Dunn is also having an excellent season, especially when the bases obtained via walk are factored in as they should be. No argument, no criticism anywhere.

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    Re: Since 1977, only one player has cracked the REDS Top-10 in Total Bases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_Davis View Post
    Dude! Who cares? I'm just talking about Total Bases. I'm not looking for a frickin' argument. Can't a guy (Phillips) get a little praise without someone criticizing the praise?

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  12. #11
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    Re: Since 1977, only one player has cracked the REDS Top-10 in Total Bases.

    Though it doesn't count walks, it's not hard to see that getting them more then average helps out a hitter in the long run, another note on that TB total, the high point for the stat occurs during the biggest hitting eras, the 20's 30's and 2001.

    Check out #10... anomaly?

    Code:
    TOTAL BASES                   YEAR     TB       BB     
    1    Babe Ruth                1921      457      100   
    2    Rogers Hornsby           1922      450       20   
    3    Lou Gehrig               1927      447       57   
    4    Chuck Klein              1930      445        4   
    5    Jimmie Foxx              1932      438       62   
    6    Stan Musial              1948      429       22   
    7    Sammy Sosa               2001      425       63   
    8    Hack Wilson              1930      423       56   
    9    Chuck Klein              1932      420       16   
    T10  Lou Gehrig               1930      419       51   
    T10  Luis Gonzalez            2001      419       44
    The seventies was a different era, less guys walked and only one player topped 400 TB (in a park built in 1912)

    Code:
    SEASON
    1970-1979
    WALKS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    TOTAL BASES                   YEAR     TB       BB     
    1    Jim Rice                 1978      406       -1   
    2    George Foster            1977      388        3   
    3    Jim Rice                 1977      382       -3   
    4    Billy Williams           1970      373       10   
    5    Jim Rice                 1979      369        2   
    6    George Brett             1979      363       -5   
    7    Johnny Bench             1970      355       -9   
    8    Joe Torre                1971      352       11   
    9    Rod Carew                1977      351       21   
    10   Billy Williams           1972      348       11
    And the past 7 season

    Code:
    SEASON
    2000-2006
    WALKS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    TOTAL BASES                   YEAR     TB       BB     
    1    Sammy Sosa               2001      425       63   
    2    Luis Gonzalez            2001      419       44   
    3    Barry Bonds              2001      411      134   
    4    Todd Helton              2000      405       46   
    5    Todd Helton              2001      402       44   
    6    Albert Pujols            2003      394       27   
    T7   Alex Rodriguez           2001      393       20   
    T7   Derrek Lee               2005      393       32   
    T9   Alex Rodriguez           2002      389       32   
    T9   Albert Pujols            2004      389       27


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