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Thread: Gold Glove watch...

  1. #16
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove watch...

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    So are clubs permitted to send out info about their players to the voters. I think the Reds should be proactive with this sort of thing, if permitted. The should have done the same thing for Harrang last year, starting with their own beat writers who didn't even vote for him.
    I believe all the awards are being voted on between now and the official start of the playoffs. You wouldn't have time to send out info and it would be bad form even if you did. Either the players, coaches and execs think you're the best in the field or they don't.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  3. #17
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove watch...

    Utley is a better defender than Phillips. But that's not why he'll win the GG. Utley will win the gold glove because he's a significantly better offensive player and he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  4. #18
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    Re: Gold Glove watch...

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Utley is a better defender than Phillips. But that's not why he'll win the GG. Utley will win the gold glove because he's a significantly better offensive player and he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball.
    Except the voting for the award happens before the playoffs. I agree that overall offense will be the main thing that helps Utley overcome his reputation as a mediocre defender. Set against that is Phillips' 30/30 season. If I had to guess, 30/30 will make a guy seem like a better defender than a .976 OPS.

    I disagree that it is a matter of absolute fact that Utley IS a better defender than Phillips. He may be, but that is far from a settled matter.
    Last edited by M2; 10-01-2007 at 07:48 PM.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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    Re: Gold Glove watch...

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Except the voting for the award happens before the playoffs.
    That doesn't matter-the point was he played for a winning team.

    Utley is better than Phillips defensively.

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    If I had to guess, 30/30 will make a guy seem like a better defender than a .976 OPS.
    In a recent poll of major leaguers that ask what is the most important offensive stat, these scored the top four in order:
    1. RBI
    2. OBP
    3. BA
    4. OPS

    Basically those four got 80% of the vote for most important.

    Utley: .332/.410/.566 OPS: .976 RBI: 103
    Phillips: .288/.331/.485 OPS: .816 RBI: 94

    It would seem that to the extent that offense influences gold glove voting, Phillips doesn't stand a chance based upon the metrics that his colleagues feel are important and it's not even close.

    The fact that this conversation is even in a gold-glove thread illustrates how silly the award is IMHO.
    Last edited by jojo; 10-01-2007 at 08:06 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  6. #20
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove watch...

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    That doesn't matter-the point was he played for a winning team.
    That's not anything close to what you said. What you said was, "he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball." So it would matter that the votes get cast before Utley gets that showcase. If you want to change the construct to team record having a major effect on GG votes feel free to make your case.

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Utley is better than Phillips defensively.
    Yes, we all understand that in the dogmatic world inside your head that Chase Utley is a better defender than Brandon Phillips. Maybe if you jump up and down while you say it, you'll prove more persuasive at convincing others on that point.
    Last edited by M2; 10-01-2007 at 08:08 PM.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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    Re: Gold Glove watch...

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    That's not anything close to what you said. What you said was, "he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball." So it would matter that the votes get cast before Utley gets that showcase.
    No it wouldn't. Because he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball.

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Yes, we all understand that in the dogmatic world inside your head that Chase Utley is a better defender than Brandon Phillips. Maybe if you jump up and down while you say it, you'll prove more persuasive at convincing others on that point.
    You're right, incurious, undignified behavior is way more persuasive....
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  8. #22
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    Re: Gold Glove watch...

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    No it wouldn't. Because he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball.
    Are you familiar with how time works in linear fashion? If all of the votes for GG are cast prior to the start of the postseason showcase then Utley's postseason showcase won't have the opportunity to influence the voters.

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    You're right, incurious, undignified behavior is way more persuasive....
    Or so you seem to keep hoping. Though this new tack of typing the same sentence over again could be a winner too.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  9. #23
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    Re: Gold Glove watch...

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Are you familiar with how time works in linear fashion? If all of the votes for GG are cast prior to the start of the postseason showcase then Utley's postseason showcase won't have the opportunity to influence the voters.
    I'm accused of being dogmatic yet the only possible interpretation for any statement is the one that seems to support your preconceived notion.

    Once again: Utley will win the gold glove because he's a significantly better offensive player and he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball.

    "Possibly going to be" suggests he might be in the playoffs in the future.

    Now. Please. Stop. It. Please.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  10. #24
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove watch...

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I'm accused of being dogmatic yet the only possible interpretation for any statement is the one that seems to support your preconceived notion.

    Once again: Utley will win the gold glove because he's a significantly better offensive player and he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball.

    "Possibly going to be" suggests he might be in the playoffs in the future.

    Now. Please. Stop. It. Please.
    Um, "possibly" means that maybe something will happen and maybe it won't happen. The Phillies are going to be in the postseason in the immediate future. That's a rock solid fact, no "possibly" about it. So, me knowing what "possibly" means and assuming incorrectly that you did too, I paid attention to the possibles - like maybe the Phillies would get to play in primetime as opposed to in the afternoon or late at night, or maybe voters would get to see more of him because of that showcase. You know, the things that maybe would or wouldn't happen in the future, not the thing that's definite - that the Phillies will be in the playoffs.

    Here's a proper use of the word possibly - "Chase Utley is possibly a better fielder than Brandon Phillips." See? No future time clause there, the verb controls the time reference, "possibly" indicates the unsettled state of the matter.

    Now. Please. Stop. Butchering. The. English. Language. And. Blaming. Others. When. They. Don't. Understand. Your. Inarticulate. Mess. Please.
    Last edited by M2; 10-01-2007 at 09:00 PM.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  11. #25
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    Re: Gold Glove watch...

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Um, "possibly" means that maybe something will happen and maybe it won't happen. The Phillies are going to be in the postseason in the immediate future. That's a rock solid fact, no "possibly" about it. So, me knowing what "possibly" means and assuming incorrectly that you did too, I paid attention to the possibles - like maybe the Phillies would get to play in primetime as opposed to in the afternoon or late at night, or maybe voters would get to see more of him because of that showcase. You know, the things that maybe would or wouldn't happen in the future, not the thing that's definite - that the Phillies will be in the playoffs.

    Here's a proper use of the word possibly - "Chase Utley is possibly a better fielder than Brandon Phillips." See? No future time clause there, the verb controls the time reference, "possibly" indicates the unsettled state of the matter.

    Now. Please. Stop. Butchering. The. English. Language. And. Blaming. Others. When. They. Don't. Understand. Your. Inarticulate. Mess. Please.
    You are the man.

  12. #26
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove watch...

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Um, "possibly" means that maybe something will happen and maybe it won't happen. The Phillies are going to be in the postseason in the immediate future. That's a rock solid fact, no "possibly" about it. So, me knowing what "possibly" means and assuming incorrectly that you did too, I paid attention to the possibles - like maybe the Phillies would get to play in primetime as opposed to in the afternoon or late at night, or maybe voters would get to see more of him because of that showcase. You know, the things that maybe would or wouldn't happen in the future, not the thing that's definite - that the Phillies will be in the playoffs.
    While that certainly trips the snark circuit breaker (which doesn't really score points if it gets in the way of the discussion), it ignores one fact- coaches and managers vote on the gold glove selection prior to the conclusion of regular season.... (i.e. "and Utley's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball.")

    I've reread this thread and I admit, my original post was hastily written and may have been poorly worded but it assumed everyone was on the same page about the voting process.

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I believe all the awards are being voted on between now and the official start of the playoffs. You wouldn't have time to send out info and it would be bad form even if you did. Either the players, coaches and execs think you're the best in the field or they don't.
    I see now where some of the trouble occurred. That said, a lot of this noise could really be avoided by an honest attempt at understanding the opposing view.....
    Last edited by jojo; 10-01-2007 at 10:28 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  13. #27
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Gold Glove watch...

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I've reread this thread and I admit, my original post was hastily written and may have been poorly worded but it assumed everyone was on the same page about the voting process.

    I see now where some of the trouble occurred. That said, a lot of this noise could really be avoided by an honest attempt at understanding the opposing view.....
    Dude, I understand the voting process just fine. All your jumbled post did was make it look like you didn't understand the process. If you did/do, that's all well and good, but how anyone's supposed to infer an assumed past tense when you're using future tense is beyond me.

    Perhaps an honest attempt at taking full ownership for the words you typed, instead of this continued deflectory noise, would be in order.

    On a separate matter, I figure it's an inexact science as to which offensive stats affect Gold Glove votes. The main benefit to offensive stats would seem to be that folks around the league know your name. BA, OPS, RBI, HR, SB, they all accomplish that. What might be instructive is that if players and coaches think SBs correlate to defensive ability, based on the notion that speed equates to range. I doubt anyone thinks RBIs correlate to defensive range.

    FWIW, I can certainly see where playing for a contender could help a candidate (back to the notion that it can add to the amount of press you get). Counterbalancing that is the Web Gem. Players watch "Baseball Tonight" to see who makes the highlights. Phillips has been getting serious face time in that forum. He's made Web Gems for barehanded relays, for getting massive air to catch liners, for behind the back flips, for all glove flips, for pressure DP turns, for dive-and-throw plays. It's unscientific, but I've heard the ESPN guys talk about Phillips as a GG winner during those highlights on a few occasions in the latter portion of the year. I haven't heard them say a word to that effect about Utley. O'Dog got noticed on a losing team pretty much the same way.

    Main point is that in the bizarre world of GG voting I'd think Phillips has been able to gain the necessary notoriety, to create the broad perception that he is indeed a good fielder.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.


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