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Thread: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

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    "Let's Roll" TeamBoone's Avatar
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    Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

    Long, but very interesting article about Adam Dunn with input from the Brennamans, Brantley, and Steve Phillips.

    Dunn is Reds' lightning rod
    By JOHN ERARDI / The Cincinnati Enquirer

    CINCINNATI — Wanna light up the switchboard?

    Mention the name of Adam Dunn.

    Even today, in a football-crazed city a day away from hosting the biggest-name team on the NFL’s Monday Night marquee, mention the name of the big ol’ country boy from New Caney, Texas, and the callers will come out of the knotty pine to attack or defend the Cincinnati Reds left fielder.

    It happened last Sunday morning on a local sports radio show. Co-host Ken Broo hadn’t come to the studio that morning intending to discuss Dunn. But a caller did, and after that, it was off to the “Big Donkey” races, Big Donkey being Dunn’s nickname.

    “You mention Adam Dunn, and you’ll get calls all over the map — ’keep him,’ ’get rid of him,’ ’let him walk,’.” Broo says. “I’ve only done the show since May, but it’s startling what a lightning rod he is.”

    So, Sunday — Fan Appreciation Day at Great American Ball Park — we try to answer why that’s the case.

    For his part, Dunn understands the passion Reds fans have for their pastime. What happens on the field is fair game.

    But he cannot understand why, for example, fans care what he does on his off-day. He doesn’t care what other people, not even the super-celebrities, do on theirs.

    “I look at USA TODAY, but only for the crossword puzzle,” he says.

    He made headlines a few weeks ago when he called out talk radio’s Bill Cunningham for saying Dunn was drunk while playing a game. Cunningham later apologized to Dunn in person.

    When it comes to his performance on the field, Dunn accepts as “part of the game” that he is going to be critiqued on Reds radio and TV broadcasts and on sports talk shows. He doesn’t listen, but says that people pass along the radio and TV criticism to him, even though he tells them he doesn’t want to hear it.

    “It’s like 12-year-old girls in middle school trying to stir up trouble,” Dunn says. “It doesn’t work with me, because I really don’t care.”

    Had the Reds been competitive this season, Dunn may have been less of a target. But after suffering through six straight losing seasons, Reds fans went into 2007 with high hopes. When the team almost immediately began to struggle, fans went in search of a reason.

    And, as so often happens, everybody focused on the big guy: What’s he not giving us that we need?

    Is it the money?

    It will cost the Reds $13 million to pick up Dunn’s option for next year. The team hasn’t announced what it’s going to do, but Dunn recently met with Reds owner Bob Castellini for a private lunch, and both sides said it went well.

    The $13 million option is a lot of money for someone who is not seen as a complete player — Dunn will probably never win a Gold Glove for his defense — but very much in line for a player with Dunn’s offensive production. In his last four seasons Dunn has hit at least 40 home runs. During that time he has 401 RBI.

    But Reds radio announcers Marty and Thom Brennaman, and Jeff Brantley, who do so much to inform — and form — the popular opinion in Reds Nation, did not mention money when they were asked about why the name “Dunn” so incites.

    Instead, they point to his size and a laid-back personality that sometimes is interpreted as indifference.

    The 6-foot-6, 275-pound Dunn is as big as an offensive lineman, but not nearly as anonymous. When he looks ungraceful on a ball hit to the outfield, or doesn’t show good instincts on the bases, or whiffs with men on second and third, his faux pas are magnified. And Dunn strikes out a lot — 722 times over the past four years.

    “I don’t think there’s a player on this team that creates more conversation than he does,” Marty Brennaman says. “I think it’s because at one point you see one of the great power hitters, a guy who has tremendous knowledge of the strike zone, yet to contradict that, he strikes out well over a hundred times every year. He’s really an enigma in many respects.”

    Agrees Brantley: “There’s so much to talk about when people hear the name, ’Adam Dunn.’ He represents the good and the bad when it comes to a baseball player ... The perception (of those differences) is what makes people respond. But for who he is, and for what god-given talent he’s got, he does a pretty damn good job.”

    Brantley said he’s changed his opinion of Dunn after watching him every day over the course of a full season.

    “Big-time,” he said. “I’ve had an opportunity to watch him through thick and thin. After taking away all of the perceptions I had of him, and giving him a fresh start and saying (to myself) after the All-Star break, ’What kind of ballplayer would I rate this guy?’ my rating is, ’Impressive.’.”

    Marty Brennaman, who has not minced words when it’s come to critiquing Dunn’s game, also said his view of the player has changed this season. He’s impressed that Dunn, who had arthroscopic knee surgery last week, played with knee pain the past two seasons and never let on publicly.

    “I’m not so sure that the knee wasn’t bothering him a helluva lot longer than he let on,” Marty Brennaman said. “And you know something? If this team were playing for something right now, he’d be in the lineup.”

    Big year despite bad knee

    Two days after Brennaman’s comments, Dunn was sitting on a couch in the middle of the Reds clubhouse signing baseball cards for charity. He admitted that the knee bothered him not only this season, but last season as well.

    He would have had surgery last season, he said, but the Reds were in a pennant race, so he put off surgery and instead began rehabbing the knee last October, thinking the knee would heal. It never did.

    In other words, Dunn took a bad knee into this season and still had another big year at the plate.

    Dunn said he feels good after the surgery to clean out the knee and repair a torn meniscus.

    “Yeah, that’s the one thing (that feels good),” Dunn says. “It hurts right now, but it feels good to know (that next year, I won’t be) in the outfield thinking about stopping — ’Golly, I’m going to have to run into the wall here to stop me instead of having to stop on my knee’ — and that meant I couldn’t make the turn that might have allowed me to throw the guy out at second. But, anyway ...”

    He had gone too far, said too much.

    He was appreciative, however, when a reporter mentioned what Marty Brennaman had said about him being a gamer.

    “That means a lot, too,” says Dunn, nodding.

    The two podiums — star player, and presenters/commentators of that player — have sometimes put the announcers and Dunn at odds.

    The broadcasters insist it is nothing personal. In fact, Thom Brennaman said he wishes Dunn was a little more outgoing.

    Take, for instance, pitcher Bronson Arroyo, who is as comfortable playing guitar and singing for Reds fans at concerts as he his pitching for them. Dunn would just as soon go fishing on his off-day.

    “In the short time I’ve been here, I’ve found (Dunn) to be an outgoing, just a nice guy,” Thom Brennaman says. “But I’m not sure if any of the fans have seen him really warm to being a Red. I don’t know why that is, and that might be completely inaccurate.

    ”But it seems to me a guy like him could have really owned this town, because he has such an engaging personality ... I’ve thought this about a lot of different players in a lot of different towns: If the players never make it feel like they want to be one with the fans, the fans are not going to treat them like they are. I think the fans want to see that Adam wants to be a Red forever. They want to feel like he wants to be here.“

    Dunn believes Reds making progress

    Dunn says he does want to be here, that he’s ”made that known“ over the years. Maybe fans misinterpret his body language as being indifferent, that’s not the case, Dunn says.

    Dunn did allow, however, that there was a time this season when he would have been happy to go elsewhere if it meant winning immediately. That feeling passed when the Reds started to show some life around the All Star break.

    ”If we had played the second half (of this season) the way we played the first half, I would have said, ’Listen, I deal with too much (garbage) off the field to stink on the field’.“ Dunn said. ”But the way Pete (Reds interim manager Pete Mackanin) has kind of done his thing, the way the young guys have come in and brought a breath of fresh air, it’s been great. We still haven’t played great, but we’ve made progress. We’re headed in the right direction.“

    A recent lunch organized by Reds owner Bob Castellini also reinvigorated the slugger’s sense of belonging.

    ”That’s the first time anybody approached me like that since I’ve been here,“ Dunn says. ”It was as though somebody wanted to get my opinion instead of looking at me like I’m still the young guy, the rookie. It’s treating me like I’m a veteran now. That was kind of refreshing. It wasn’t like I went into it thinking, ’Nobody likes me.’ It was just good to know they kind of value my opinion. Whether they take it or not, who cares?“

    Thom Brennaman said he thinks more fans are coming around to Dunn.

    ”If you had asked most Reds fans in July, ’Should the Reds pick up Dunn’s option?’ eight out of 10 would have said ’No way,’.“ Thom Brennaman said. ”If you ask them now, I bet eight out of 10 would say ’Absolutely.’ There’s just something about the way the numbers keep adding up when you play everyday.“

    Flaws out front

    About those numbers. There are lots of home runs. But there are lots of strikeouts, too.

    ”Blindingly obvious“ is the phrase used by statistical analyst Greg Gajus to describe Dunn’s flaws, even though Gajus supports Dunn because Dunn gets on base at a high percentage rate, and getting on base is what produces runs.

    ”Defense and strikeouts — you see them every game,“ said Gajus, a researcher on books about the Reds. ”Think about it: He strikes out about once a game, only homers once every four games ... Most fans don’t understand that all those walks are much more valuable than the (so-called) ’productive outs.’ When Dunn gets a walk, it is a disappointment (for fans, because) everyone thinks the only thing he does is hit home runs. It is particularly disappointing to them when he doesn’t hit one with runners on base.“

    The big strikeout — the flip side of the monster home run — is particularly noticeable: In 152 games this season, Dunn struck out 165 times. Last season he struck out 194 times in 160 games.

    Steve Phillips, the former New York Mets general manager who is now with ESPN, said the big strikeout during a rally ”stops everything“ for fans.

    But it can’t just be the strikeouts that have turned some fans off of Dunn. The Phillies’ Ryan Howard, who is the most popular player in Philadelphia, is leading the major leagues in strikeouts (197 going into Friday’s game). Last season Howard struck out 181 times, good for second behind Dunn.

    Another ugly number is Dunn’s batting average with runners in scoring position (RISP). This season, he hit 23 points lower with RISP (.241) than he did overall (.264). Over his career, the discrepancy is even bigger — 26 points (.222 to .248, respectively).

    But analysts like Gajus counter that too much importance is placed on RISP. Scoring more runs than the other team is what wins games, and you score runs by getting on base. Dunn does that by drawing lots of walks.

    This season, Dunn walked 101 times, good for seventh in the majors through Thursday’s games. In 2006, Dunn had 115 walks, second-best in the majors.

    Then there’s what ESPN’s Phillips refers to as ”the outward grit.“

    Because Dunn comes off as lacking it, he doesn’t get the free pass issued to every other hustling Red who is perceived as being made in the image of this city’s ultimate icon, Pete Rose.

    Stats-cruncher Justin Inaz, who writes a blog about the Reds, said ”Dunn is in many ways the complete opposite (of Rose). He’s huge, doesn’t look like he’s hustling much, strikes out a ton, has tons of power, and often gets as many extra base hits as he does singles.

    “I think he’s good at exactly those things that Cincinnati fans have somehow decided aren’t important - even though they do help win ballgames.”

    Love from within

    Dunn’s teammates like him for what he can do, rather than what he cannot. Plus, they enjoy his laid-back presence in the clubhouse. Somebody has to be that way, just to keep things loose in the 162-game season.

    A great argument can be made that more fire is needed in the Reds clubhouse, but that doesn’t mean the Reds brass should ditch Dunn to make room for it, his teammates say.

    “I love Dunner, he’s a good guy,” says the Reds’ best player, Brandon Phillips. “He’s a great teammate.”

    Scott Hatteberg, one of the team’s best hitters and arguably its best student, notes that Dunn’s shortcomings on the field are not a result of Dunn not trying.

    “He has told me that his average with runners in scoring position is a frustrating thing for him,” Hatteberg says. “He wishes he were better at that. But with him, he’s in scoring position when he walks to the plate. That stat (has application) to somebody like me, a guy who doesn’t drive the ball out of the yard as much. It’s not a fair stat when you’re talking about him.”

    “For me,” concludes Hatteberg, “signing Dunn to the option (for next year) is a no-brainer.”

    Why?

    “He just keeps getting better — his (batting) average is better, his strikeouts are down, his (overall) run production is second to none,” Hatteberg says. “And he’s what, 26? (Dunn is 27) The knock on him is his defense, but it was a knock for Ted Williams, too.”

    Sunday, Dunn will be in his usual upbeat mood as his teammates close out the season.

    “I think I’ve matured a lot this year,” he says. “If the off-the-field stuff had happened to me a few years ago, I think I’d have reacted differently. But I’m still kickin’, still feelin’ good. I’d be preaching a different note if we hadn’t picked it up the way we did (before Ken Griffey Jr. got hurt). We had guys come here and do well who I’d never even heard of before.

    ”That was exciting for me. I’m excited about next year.“



    For excerpts from interviews with former Mets general manager Steve Phillips and other baseball analysts on Adam Dunn, go to Cincinnati.com.
    http://www.coshoctontribune.com:80/a...19/1006/SPORTS
    "Enjoy this Reds fans, you are watching a legend grow up before your very eyes" ... DoogMinAmo on Adam Dunn

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    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

    Damn good article. I'm amazed that people think Marty and Brantley hate Adam because they harp on him at times. They both have shown over time that they respect his game and really value what he brings to the team. Marty sometimes get's frustrated and for some reason people think it's only with Adam. He's never been personal with Adam and people need to realize that. It's a shame he's been labeled a Dunn hater and the perception can't be turned around to the truth.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

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    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

    What off the field stuff does he keep referring to? Is it just the whole Cunningham thing?
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    Re: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    What off the field stuff does he keep referring to? Is it just the whole Cunningham thing?
    Cunningham, Marty, and just about every other yakbag talking head in town that seems to think if you aren't gutting out every fly ball to 1st that you don't deserve a game check.
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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod



    LEAVE ADAM ALONE!


    Good article. Even living/working up here in central Ohio I'm around alot of Red fans. I work 3rd shift, so every night, as I get to work, the Red's game is coming to an end. And because I'm such an avid fan, people are always coming up to me and asking the score, and wanting to talk about the other aspects of the game. During the course of the season there are alot of discussions on the Reds in general. Alot on guys like Dunn (and Griffey).

    And every time the name of Adam Dunn is brought up I'd say 75% of them say the same stereotypical perceptions that have been believed about Adam.... while they are impressed with his power, and love seeing his mammoth Hrs, they say he Ks too much, has a mediocre B/A, can't hit with runners on base, is a liability in the OF, and either they hope they trade him or they wouldn't be upset if they got rid of him. He certainly isn't worth 13 Mil/season.

    And do you know who alot of them say is their favorite ballplayer? Ryan Freel. And when it comes down to the type of ballplayer they prefer, it always comes down to the superficial (what they see on the outside).... He hustles. He acts like he really cares and wants to win. He's out there throwing himself all over the place, making diving catches, running into walls, stealing bases, yadda, yadda, yadda.

    He's exciting. Fans want to view excitement. That's why they are drawn to guys like a Freel and Hopper. I've had more then my share of Norris Hooper conversations at work too. Keppinger is now starting to gain a following also.

    And to many, the only time Dunn is exciting is when he hits one into the river. And when he fails to do that, then he's boring to watch. When I try to explain to some of these guys about other more viable stats, like OB%, total bases, and especially that Dunn draws walks (gets on base), it's almost like they are being lulled to sleep.... B-O-R-I-N-G. To them, anyone can walk. Walks are not EXCITING. We pay Adam to hit Hrs and drive guys in.

    Had the Reds been competitive this season, Dunn may have been less of a target. But after suffering through six straight losing seasons, Reds fans went into 2007 with high hopes. When the team almost immediately began to struggle, fans went in search of a reason.
    And here's another issue that I've had alot of discussion on at work. The consistent losing of the Reds is misdirected towards the wrong players or areas of the Red's game. It's funny because every night when we come into work and listen to another Red's loss, we're all saying the same thing.... "Well, so-and-so really pitched a bad game" or "The bullpen really blew another one!" But if Dunn or Jr didn't hit a Hr, or maybe K'd in a key situation, that'll also get thrown in as to why we lost.

    I look at them and say "Guys. Do you see a consistent pattern here?" I want to take a Sharpie and write on their forehead P-I-T-C-H-I-N-G

    Our pitching puts us in a huge hole, and they expect guys like Dunn to overcome/compensate for that. There isn't an offense in MLB that can offset the runs allowed that this staff gives up.

    But the blame has to be directed somewhere, and it's those high paid, high profile players like a Jr or Dunn that are going to get the blunt of the criticism.

    This forum has "spoiled" alot of us. For the most part - not only is everyone on here an avid Red's fan who likes to sit down and watch/listen to a game; but we also go one step farther.... we like to analyze that game. Break it down and get into the "mechanics" of why it works (or why it isn't working). And while the number of fans that like doing that is growing. Those fans are still vastly outnumbered in "fandom".

    Again. It's the superficial. All they care about is the results. What they can see and excites their senses. People love to drive their cars or play on the computer/surf the internet. They could care less about the mundane how-whys that make it work. That is until it breaks.

    Because Dunn comes off as lacking it, he doesn’t get the free pass issued to every other hustling Red who is perceived as being made in the image of this city’s ultimate icon, Pete Rose.
    Damn that Pete Rose!

    I wonder if Adam feels like Jan from Brady Bunch whenever the "iconic" Rose is brought up?

    "Marcia! Marcia! Marcia!"

    Trade Adam so I don't have to keep going into work and defending him. I want to talk about something else.

    Or maybe we need to have Cliff Robertson (Ben Parker) give Adam a pep talk?.....

    "Remember Pete...err... Adam. With great power comes great responsibility."

    "This is my gift. My curse. I'm Spider.... uh..... Adam Dunn"
    Last edited by GAC; 09-30-2007 at 07:52 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    Damn good article. I'm amazed that people think Marty and Brantley hate Adam because they harp on him at times.
    It's only "hating" if they disagree with it.

    He was all over Majewski the other night, and nobody said squat about it.

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    Re: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

    Most fans don’t understand that all those walks are much more valuable than the (so-called) ’productive outs.’ When Dunn gets a walk, it is a disappointment (for fans, because) everyone thinks the only thing he does is hit home runs. It is particularly disappointing to them when he doesn’t hit one with runners on base.“
    Shoot, we covered this years ago. Leave it to Cincinnati press to actually print it 5 years later.

    In football season.

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    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt700wlw View Post
    It's only "hating" if they disagree with it.

    He was all over Majewski the other night, and nobody said squat about it.
    Because he happens to be right about that one. BIG difference. All the whining about poor Marty and about what a "shame" it is people get on Marty about his dislike of certain players has got be every bit as bad as all the "haters" of Marty. Marty might have said some nice things about Dunn for the purpose of this article, but based on what he says on a nightly basis during the seasons weights much heavier than a few quotes for an article like the one above. It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing. Marty's been very clear how he feels about Adam's game over the years. What he said here doesn't erase that.

    Heck, I think Marty is every bit the lightning rod that Dunn is. And I bet if you look at the masses who are the peopla GAC describe that he works with, they'll mostly be the same people who fawm over Marty. It's probably not a perfect one to one relationship, but I bet it's pretty darn close.
    Last edited by MWM; 09-30-2007 at 11:04 AM.
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    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

    I'm not whining about "poor Marty," I just don't think what he says about players is as big a deal as some people want to make it.

    Some people get so worked up because he may voice an opinion that differs from theirs, and that he has the cajones (and I would say the ok from his bosses) to voice those opinions.

    Some people don't like that.
    Last edited by Matt700wlw; 09-30-2007 at 11:21 AM.

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    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt700wlw View Post
    Some people get so worked up because he may voice an opinion that differs from theirs
    If it were just that, I don't think anyone would care all that much. It's much more than that and it's been discussed tirelessly on this site. I'm not going to rehash all the reasons why, but you're definitely wrong about the "differing opinion" angle being what people don't like about Marty.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

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    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    If it were just that, I don't think anyone would care all that much. It's much more than that and it's been discussed tirelessly on this site. I'm not going to rehash all the reasons why, but you're definitely wrong about the "differing opinion" angle being what people don't like about Marty.
    Probably a good idea....we don't another Marty thread

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    Re: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

    I doubt John Erardi would even want the gig, but it'd be oh-so-nice if he were the Reds' beat writer for the Enquirer.
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    Re: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Cunningham, Marty, and just about every other yakbag talking head in town that seems to think if you aren't gutting out every fly ball to 1st that you don't deserve a game check.
    I think that part of this stems from the hullabaloo earlier this season (or was it last season), when Adam brought his golf clubs to the clubhouse. Fans were livid over that, why, I don't know. I think you can even find at least one thread on this site that dealt with it.

    Fans don't like that he fishes on his day off... they want him to be at the park hitting in the cage, etc., especially because of the money he makes. They want him focusing on baseball, baseball, baseball... even on his day off, even though it may be one or two days a month. I suppose these fans go to their workplace every weekend when they are off to hone their trade.

    “He has told me that his average with runners in scoring position is a frustrating thing for him,” Hatteberg says. “He wishes he were better at that. But with him, he’s in scoring position when he walks to the plate. That stat (has application) to somebody like me, a guy who doesn’t drive the ball out of the yard as much. It’s not a fair stat when you’re talking about him.”
    Amen, Hatte. Too bad a whole lot of other people can't see it that way.

    Without runners in scoring position, he hit 19 solo HRs this year. Of the remaining 21 HRs, fourteen were with runners on 1B. That's 47 RBI with runners NOT in scoring position (around a .275 BA).... but those scored runs don't count in the RISP stat.

    Scott's right; for a power hitter, they need to come up with a new stat... one that's just as recognizable to the casual fan as RISP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt700wlw View Post
    It's only "hating" if they disagree with it.

    He was all over Majewski the other night, and nobody said squat about it.
    That's because Majik doesn't do his job very well... a huge difference between him and Adam Dunn, who does do his job well, but still gets ripped on an almost daily basis, not only for each thing he does in the game that's perceivably wrong to Marty Brennaman who does not see the forest for the trees, but also for his personal personna, which is purely conjecture on Marty's part.
    Last edited by TeamBoone; 09-30-2007 at 01:37 PM.
    "Enjoy this Reds fans, you are watching a legend grow up before your very eyes" ... DoogMinAmo on Adam Dunn

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    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt700wlw View Post
    I'm not whining about "poor Marty," I just don't think what he says about players is as big a deal as some people want to make it.

    Some people get so worked up because he may voice an opinion that differs from theirs, and that he has the cajones (and I would say the ok from his bosses) to voice those opinions.

    Some people don't like that.
    As far as I know Marty's never suggested that Majewski's troubles were do to the fact that he was lazy or didn't care.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

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    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Dunn is Reds' lightning rod

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    As far as I know Marty's never suggested that Majewski's troubles were do to the fact that he was lazy or didn't care.
    I've wondered if Dunn cares before....I think he does, he's just laid back, which sometimes makes it appear that he doesn't.

    Majewski just stinks


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