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Thread: The Catching Problem

  1. #16
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: The Catching Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Someone explain Ross being a "plus defender."
    Well, only Molina (54&#37, Mauer (53%), and Johjima (47%) threw out a greater percentage of runners than Ross (39%).

    I'm not sure the best way to judge non-throwing defense. I'm definitely not a fan of C-ERA.

    His FPCT was above average. His Range Factor was average (and above each of the 3 with better CS%).

    I agree he's no Johnny Bench back there. However, I'm not sure I've seen evidence that he's worse than average defensively and he has one of the best arms in the league. Outside of anecdote, do you have reason to think he's bad? Scouting report, some other metrics, etc.? I'm actually curious -- catching defense is even tougher than everybody else's to judge.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  3. #17
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    Re: The Catching Problem

    I've already brought up Shoppach's name. I mentioned his strong arm, defensive play, power, walks. I failed to mentioned that he kills left handed pitching, a plus in the Reds lineup. He's more of a singles hitter against righties but that will improve with PT.

  4. #18
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    Re: The Catching Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Well, only Molina (54%), Mauer (53%), and Johjima (47%) threw out a greater percentage of runners than Ross (39%).

    I'm not sure the best way to judge non-throwing defense. I'm definitely not a fan of C-ERA.

    His FPCT was above average. His Range Factor was average (and above each of the 3 with better CS%).

    I agree he's no Johnny Bench back there. However, I'm not sure I've seen evidence that he's worse than average defensively and he has one of the best arms in the league. Outside of anecdote, do you have reason to think he's bad? Scouting report, some other metrics, etc.? I'm actually curious -- catching defense is even tougher than everybody else's to judge.
    He's slow. Lots of balls get past him, from both pitchers and fielders. His throwing arm may keep him "average," but instead of worrying about throwing guys out I'd like to get a good receiver and game caller, an all-around athletic guy behind the plate.

    Ross is pure vanilla behind the plate. I'd like to see a genuine upgrade on defense from C and SS this offseason. It looks like we're stuck with Hamilton in CF for now, but I imagine his offense will more than compensate for what he lacks in defense.

  5. #19
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: The Catching Problem

    Ross and Valentin are anything but exciting behind the plate, but the Reds have far greater holes to fill than the spot behind the plate. Ross is competent back there, and he has a little pop in his bat. It'd be nice to upgrade the position, but not at great cost and certainly not at the expense of pursuing a more suitable replacement for one of the other holes this team needs to fill.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  6. #20
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: The Catching Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    He's slow. Lots of balls get past him, from both pitchers and fielders. His throwing arm may keep him "average," but instead of worrying about throwing guys out I'd like to get a good receiver and game caller, an all-around athletic guy behind the plate.

    Ross is pure vanilla behind the plate. I'd like to see a genuine upgrade on defense from C and SS this offseason. It looks like we're stuck with Hamilton in CF for now, but I imagine his offense will more than compensate for what he lacks in defense.
    Fair enough FCB. It's a position that could be improved. That said, in light of all the areas in which the Reds could improve, it ranks really freaking low, especially considering the dearth of better options.

    The point I was trying to make is that Ross is not the problem he's made out to be. He had a poor offensive year that was largely due to bad luck and isn't a bad defensive catcher. He's no all-star, but he's not bad and he's cheap. I'm not sure I see better options out there when you factor in salary, etc.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  7. #21
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: The Catching Problem

    I would like to see the Reds target a young catcher in the offseason. Bill and flyer already mentioned Shoppach and Jeff Clement and I would love to have one of those two guys. Jeff Mathis could be another option. He's struggled badly this year but I think he's worth taking a chance on. I would love to see Griffey approve a trade to the Angels for Santana, Mathis, and a relief prospect like Jose Arredondo or to the Mariners for Clement and a prospect.

  8. #22
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    Re: The Catching Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis View Post
    Ross and Valentin are anything but exciting behind the plate, but the Reds have far greater holes to fill than the spot behind the plate. Ross is competent back there, and he has a little pop in his bat. It'd be nice to upgrade the position, but not at great cost and certainly not at the expense of pursuing a more suitable replacement for one of the other holes this team needs to fill.

    I agree! Just don't think the UPGRADES are worth the cost. Ross is actually a plus defensive catcher. Again, catchers aren't generally known for offense. YOu just hope to get something out of the position and ROSS has pop and hopefully will split the difference of his last 2 seasons and Javy can hit .280 plus all year. I see no problem here. Fix pitching and be happy with what we have here. It's not that bad.
    And This One Belongs to the REDS!!!

  9. #23
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: The Catching Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Someone explain Ross being a "plus defender."
    On the "Do We Really Consider Defense" thread

    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...19#post1473219

    you stated this about catching and defense.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    I'd also like to say that as far as defensive positions and their importance, catcher, shortstop, and CF are the most crucial positions, and it just so happens that the Reds are anywhere from moderately weak to downright awful in each of those areas. I think an upgrade at just two of those positions would make a marked improvement in the overall RA picture--and for relatively cheap.

    I think one of the reasons the Cards will finish ahead of the Reds in the standings (aside from their bullpen) is the presence of a guy like Yadier Molina behind the plate instead of Ross or Valentin. I'd say at this juncture Molina's defense is more valuable than even Rolen's.

    And I posted these comparison numbers from '07....

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    Looking at it from solely a defensive perspective, I don't see any great disparity between the two. In fact, lookng at PO's, Ross has 80+ over Molina in less innings.

    If you think Ross' defense is a liability or terrible, then you certainly can't put Molina's on the level of a Scott Rolen. Not comparing the numbers.

    Code:
             Inn  PO   A   TE FE  FPct  DPS  DPT
    Molina   861  582  63  5  1   .991   7    3   
    Ross     837  662  50  7  0   .993   8    1
    Now from a Win Shares perspective, Molina gets the nod....

    Code:
           Batting  Fielding  ExpWS  WSP   WSAB  Total WS  
    Molina    10.0     5.3      13   .559    6      15 
    Ross       0.5     5.1       9   .296   -1       5
    But what is dragging Ross' Total Win Shares down? His bat, not his defense.
    Last edited by GAC; 10-02-2007 at 09:12 PM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations


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