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Thread: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

  1. #1
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    Wayne's tenure as GM as obviously been one of a few highs and just as many, if not more lows. Since last offseason, there have been many different feelings expressed. Some have said "Give him until the ASB." Others, "Give him until the deadline." Others want him to have another year or more. So, I pose this question to you:

    How much longer does Wayne have, in your eyes, to really get this team headed in the right direction?

    I would venture to guess that most of you already know I think he should have been shown the door already. My feeling is that this team needed (and still needs) a nice overhaul, bringing some much needed young pitching into the organization. I haven't seen this happen. I haven't seen pitching be the highest priority in the two drafts Wayne has overseen. I haven't seen, for whatever reason, pitching be of any priority in the FA market last season. Because of these reasons, I am completely unsure how Wayne thinks he can acquire the pitching to compete in the National League. Most of his attempts to bring pitching into Cincy have failed miserably. For this team to have any shot in the Central, he needs to step up in the pitching market.

    So since he is still here, I'm going to say that my new personal deadline for Krivsky is July 1st. By that time, we will have a good feeling of how the '08 pitching staff is faring and we will have seen what he did in the 2008 amateur draft. We will also have seen another few months of Stubbs, Watson and other Wayne draftees.

    Until then, I will be waiting to see how this offseason goes.

    So what's your PKD (Personal Krivsky Deadline)?

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    Re: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    There is no such things as deadlines. Either you feel like he can do it or not. Oh, stay out of his way as well(sadly that doesn't happen in Reds organizations).

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    While I don't have any definitive deadline, I have the feeling that my opinion of Krivsky will be very heavily influenced by how the Dunn and Junior situations have developed come this time next year. That should tell me pretty much everything I need to know.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Re: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    I think the definition of young pitching has to be established. Does it include guys who were coming up through the minors when he came in and after. Do they have to be given a chance to take their lumps at the Major league level? If so, you're looking at 2 years minumum.

    If you're talking about forget about bumps, I want young guys who deal like Brandon Webb, and I want them yesterday, then like you EdAbbs, he should be gone.

    I split the difference. I want young arms that can be productive this year(Belisle, Coutlangus, Burton) and I want some guys that are showing signs if a little rough at the major league level,(Bailey, Cueto, Maloney.)
    If I don't see that this year, he gets the boot.
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  6. #5
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    My deadline came and went at the AS break this year. Taking over a club that went 75-87 the year before he was hired and turning into a 72-90 club two years later, while constantly tinkering with the weak pitching, was enough for me. Krivsky inherited a club that scored 820 runs and gave up 889 for a -.43 run differential per game. In 2007 the club scored 783 runs and gave up 853, for a run differential of -.44 per game.

    What will happen? He'll get 5 years. Bob C talks a good game, but he likes Krivsky and Mackanin (and that's why Mack will probably stay too) and continues to believe that the parts are in place save one or two things. He's wrong, but that's the read I get. I'd say Krivsky's demise will come at the AS break in 2010.

    And for you guys much more into sophisticated stats, i was using pen pencil and calculator, so if you can blow holes in this, fire away. I always figured that runs scored and runs allowed showed wins, losses and improvement pretty well. A lot I know...

  7. #6
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    2008-2009 season we should be in the playoffs.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan View Post
    2008-2009 season we should be in the playoffs.
    I suspect you're right, but I doubt there's convincing some here of that.

    I would disagree with Edabbs original premise; that WK has made some good on one hand, but many bad on the other. I'd suggest it's the other way around. No question, there have been some moves that have not worked out. A couple of examples just off the top of my head:

    Cormier, I think he gambled that Cormier would help and could easily be flipped during the off-season.

    As much as I've liked Juan Castro, I've come to recognize what many here on RZ say, that he's not a very good ballplayer and hasn't done much on the field to warrant his acquisition.

    Mike Stanton has not worked out as hoped, although he had some stretches were he was a good pitcher, protestations on RZ notwithstanding.

    I wouldn't put "The Trade" in the missed category as it really hasn't worked much for either team. We can argue until Gabriel blows his horn as to whether we could have gotten more elsewhere. Only time will tell whether the pitchers we received are ultimately worth the move. Kearns and Lopez aren't setting the world on fire, so not a terrible loss from our perspective.

    The good? The list is extensive: Brandon Phillips, Josh Hamilton, Scott Hatteberg as a fill-in awaiting the development of Joey Votto, extending Adam Dunn (even including a contract that has made it hard to move him; intentional on both parties part in my opinion), two decent prospects flipping Jeff Conine, acquisition of additional bench strenght: Cantu, Pedro Lopez, Keppingers, Coats. Signing Gonzalez as a free agent (in spite of his off year defensively), when his mind wasn't elsewhere, his offense was a plus and to hear Phillips say, he helped him defensively.

    A vast array of young pitching (some taking their knocks at the ML level, others in the minors): Coutlangus, Burton, Maloney, McBeth, Livingston (now injured), Alex Smit, Saarloos; and I'd include Bray & Majewski.

    Has he been perfect? Of course not, but I'd say he's made more good acquisitions than bad and by a long shot. Our largest weakness still needs to be addressed and Mackanin keeps saying it - pitching, pitching, pitching. But he's moving us in the right direction, IMO.
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    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    The good? The list is extensive: Brandon Phillips, Josh Hamilton, Scott Hatteberg as a fill-in awaiting the development of Joey Votto, extending Adam Dunn (even including a contract that has made it hard to move him; intentional on both parties part in my opinion), two decent prospects flipping Jeff Conine, acquisition of additional bench strenght: Cantu, Pedro Lopez, Keppingers, Coats. Signing Gonzalez as a free agent (in spite of his off year defensively), when his mind wasn't elsewhere, his offense was a plus and to hear Phillips say, he helped him defensively.

    A vast array of young pitching (some taking their knocks at the ML level, others in the minors): Coutlangus, Burton, Maloney, McBeth, Livingston (now injured), Alex Smit, Saarloos; and I'd include Bray & Majewski.

    And he hasn't delt anyone away that wasn't able to ultematley be replaced. Nor has he signed any deals that anchor the team ala Milton. I don't care for the Stanton and Freel extensions but they certinally don't sink the team for any extended period of time.

    His drafts have been pitching heavy. That his 1st pick this year wasn't a pitcher doesn't negate the fact they chose a huge number of pitchers in total. Lots of guys turn out to be successfull after being chosen in the later rounds.

    He didn't panic at this years deadline and recoginized that pitching just wasn't going to happen.

    His errors have been hashed to death. Extending Narron is one that hasn't been discussed, but that's been rectified. And as many here told us we weren't going to be competitive in 2007, if ever, so whether Narron sunk us or not is irrlevant. But in total, it was a mistake.

    Frankly, I think setting a deadline is silly. As long as his positives generally continue to outweigh his negatives, and the team is showing signs of improvement desipte it's overall record, then he continues to keep the job.

    But if you want a specific date......I guess I'll have to go with May, 2006.
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  10. #9
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    How much longer does Wayne have, in your eyes, to really get this team headed in the right direction?

    So what's your PKD (Personal Krivsky Deadline)?
    Too bad MLB has an out of control salary structure. It is tough to judge a captain when his ship is sailing upstream, while other captains get to sail downstream. It is tough to judge a carpenter when he gets to drive nails with a wrench, while other carpenters get to drive nails with a sledgehammer.

    I'd rather see people put a deadline on how long they can take MLB seriously as a FAIR sport between teams. What is their MLBSDD (Major League Baseball Salary Dysfunction Deadline).
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

  11. #10
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    And he hasn't delt anyone away that wasn't able to ultematley be replaced. Nor has he signed any deals that anchor the team ala Milton. I don't care for the Stanton and Freel extensions but they certinally don't sink the team for any extended period of time.

    His drafts have been pitching heavy. That his 1st pick this year wasn't a pitcher doesn't negate the fact they chose a huge number of pitchers in total. Lots of guys turn out to be successfull after being chosen in the later rounds.

    He didn't panic at this years deadline and recoginized that pitching just wasn't going to happen.

    His errors have been hashed to death. Extending Narron is one that hasn't been discussed, but that's been rectified. And as many here told us we weren't going to be competitive in 2007, if ever, so whether Narron sunk us or not is irrlevant. But in total, it was a mistake.

    Frankly, I think setting a deadline is silly. As long as his positives generally continue to outweigh his negatives, and the team is showing signs of improvement desipte it's overall record, then he continues to keep the job.

    But if you want a specific date......I guess I'll have to go with May, 2006.
    You mention one thing I had meant to say - that Krivsky has made the vast majority of his moves without giving up our premier prospects.

    I agree that Freel and Stanton's contracts will probably prove to be problematic. It occurred to me when someone mentioned about Stanton's contract is guaranteed for 2009 with a combined 170 innings this year and next. That says to me that he will not be cut this year. He will either be here the entire year with us controlling his innings or his contract will be traded. No way do I want some other club locking hanging us with the '09 guarantee with them using him. They get a second year with us on the hook.

    I know we've said this over and over and over again - changing the culture of a moribund club takes time. I think we're making progress. Even this disasterous season would have looked less worse without the plethora of injuries in the final weeks. We win some of those games we lost if we have our 1st string outfield. That's small comfort, but I like this club's core.
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  12. #11
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    When I look at Kirvsky's tenure as a red I have to say he made this organization better. The record might not say that but the org is more talent rich now than it was before. To this date the three most contraversial players Krivsky gave away were Kearns, Lopez and Harris. To be quite honest in Kearn's and Lopez' situations he was able to increase both value and production for much less money and Harris was replaced by Keppy which was pretty much an even swap.

    I think it is foolish to say Krivsky hasn't tried to add better pitching depth as well. Off the top of my head he has added Thompson, Maloney, Burton, Livingston, Jukich, etc which are all young arms. He hasn't spent foolish money on the FA market which is the most important thing. Last year of all the pitchers to hit the market (Mench, Lilly, Suppan, Marquis) the only one who held his weight was Lilly. None of them deserved the contracts they got and I am glad Krivsky didn't go after them.

    To answer the original question I give him this full year until I start to question his merits as a GM. It is difficult if not damn near impossible to improve a team over a 2 year stint without increasing payroll. I would imagine that an Cast. has said he wants Jr. to be in a reds uniform when he hits #600 which is a primary reason Jr has not been traded. Dunn has increased his value with his solid year last year. While his contract is a little tricky he will have some demand as the trade deadline increases. He has increased the procuction at most positions without increasing payroll. By doing that I think he has earned a chance for atleast 1+ years.

  13. #12
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    How much longer does Wayne have, in your eyes, to really get this team headed in the right direction?
    I think the organization is turning in the right direction already and that is the result of the last four years of drafts.

    So, I think Wayne should have until the end of his contract (which, I believe is through next year) to implement his plan. So far, he's added a lot of young pitching through the draft, resigned several key players (and one or two "not-so-key" players) and dug up a couple of gems. This will be his second off-season to strengthen the club so we'll see what transpires whilst stroking our collective beards.

    BTW, overall, I still give him a "C" for his performance so far.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

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    Re: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    At least two more years. You can't keep switching GMs. You have to let Krivsky's plan work or fail. For those who don't think there is a plan, it seems to be -- keeping the team afloat while building with minor leaguers. So far it hasn't worked, but the farm is getting stronger.

    Any new GM will require a year or maybe more to get settled, change personnel and front office folks, etc. Want to go through that still again?

    Let's give WK some more time.

  15. #14
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966 View Post
    Too bad MLB has an out of control salary structure. It is tough to judge a captain when his ship is sailing upstream, while other captains get to sail downstream. It is tough to judge a carpenter when he gets to drive nails with a wrench, while other carpenters get to drive nails with a sledgehammer.

    I'd rather see people put a deadline on how long they can take MLB seriously as a FAIR sport between teams. What is their MLBSDD (Major League Baseball Salary Dysfunction Deadline).
    I agree that it is unfair, but we would need a GM who can overcome that imbalance. If we can't get one, then it's time to fold up shop and head home.

  16. #15
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What's your Personal Krivsky Deadline?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    You mention one thing I had meant to say - that Krivsky has made the vast majority of his moves without giving up our premier prospects.
    The team went from 80 wins last season to 72 wins this past season. If he did give up premier prospects for that result, he should not only be fired but also barred from the sport.


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