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Thread: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

  1. #541
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    Back to my original point.
    Who was buried on the Cubs bench or in AAA that has gone on to starring roles elsewhere or since Dusty left.
    Well the arms have fallen off most of the young pitchers...

    Being serious though, obviously Dusty will do what he thinks gives his team the best chance of winning so I think it's unfair to say Dusty won't play youngsters. It's just that he tends to overvalue experience and will give veterans long leashes even when slumping badly.

    Here's some questions in answer to your question-what youngsters has Dusty managed to greatness? Also, what's a FO that just signed Dusty more likely to do (especially if his opinion about the roster are considered), funnel him youngsters or find a way to get him what he historically has preferred the most?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  3. #542
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outshined_One View Post
    There's a side to this equation you have to take into account.

    It's not just that Dusty Baker would let potentially promising young position players rot on the bench for extended stretches. It's that he would play veterans over them who should not have seen the kind of playing time they got. It's one thing when you keep a promising young player on the bench because you have a pretty good veteran producing. It's another thing when you trot out Neifi Perez every day as a top of the order hitter instead of one of those promising young players.

    In other words, Dusty was a-okay with starting arguably the worst everyday player of this generation over someone like Ronny Cedeno or Ryan Theriot. That doesn't speak well to his judgment.
    Ronny Cedeno played 151 games last year. If he was playing Neiffi, it wasn't because Cedeno was missing time.
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
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  4. #543
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    You're surprised?
    I shouldn't be, but I'd hate to ever get to the point where I reach some sort of zen-acceptance of the prevalence of racism in this city.
    Championships Matter.
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  5. #544
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Well the arms have fallen off most of the young pitchers...

    Being serious though, obviously Dusty will do what he thinks gives his team the best chance of winning so I think it's unfair to say Dusty won't play youngsters. It's just that he tends to overvalue experience and will give veterans long leashes even when slumping badly.

    Here's some questions in answer to your question-what youngsters has Dusty managed to greatness? Also, what's a FO that just signed Dusty more likely to do (especially if his opinion about the roster are considered), funnel him youngsters or find a way to get him what he historically has preferred the most?
    Fair points all. However, I'm not sure there are managers around who won't play the struggling veteran over the struggling rookie.
    Unless you know you're coming back next year, you have to go with who you feel more comfortable with.

    I don't know of any players Dusty has managed to greatness, but I just don't think he's had the quality of young position and pitching talent that he has in Cincinnati.
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
    ---Joe Posnanski

  6. #545
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    Because I have nothing better to do with my time here's a list of players I compiled potentially available in free agency this offseason who have played for Dusty either with the Giants, Cubs, or both:

    Barry Bonds
    Sammy Sosa
    Livan Hernandez
    Matt Clement
    Kerry Wood
    Russ Ortiz
    Greg Maddux
    Moises Alou
    Ramon Martinez
    Julian Tavarez
    Joe Borowoski
    LaTroy Hawkins
    Michael Barrett
    Yorvit Torrealba
    Pedro Feliz
    Reggie Sanders
    Kenny Lofton
    Cesar Izturis
    Antonio Alfonseca
    Scott Linebrink
    Corey Patterson

    I bolded the guys I sure as hell wouldn't mind seeing in a Reds uniform. You can't tell me we wouldn't be a better ballclub with the bolded guys.

    Hell, just Michael Barrett alone would completely change this ballclub.

  7. #546
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    I didn't listen, but that is just beyond disappointing if race factored at all into the fans discussion of Baker's hiring.
    I heard it being a factor...heard it, with my own ears..


    I was very sad when I heard it...because, in this day and age, we should be beyond that kind of crap.


    Thankfully, I didn't hear it on a show that I produce

  8. #547
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    I bolded the guys I sure as hell wouldn't mind seeing in a Reds uniform. You can't tell me we wouldn't be a better ballclub with the bolded guys.

    Hell, just Michael Barrett alone would completely change this ballclub.
    What we need is for Borowski to give up a devastating home run like in game 7, than he'll be easier to sign.
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
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  9. #548
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Would Rivera be worth a look? And the money?

  10. #549
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt700wlw View Post
    Would Rivera be worth a look? And the money?
    Heck no, way to much coin for a closer
    Go Gators!

  11. #550
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    I was away all weekend tending to other business and nowhere near radio or computer. Sometimes I like to get away from all of it. I got home this evening to this. What a couple of days, huh?

    I kept looking over all the candidates for this job and came back underwhelmed. All of them. I knew neither Larussa nor Torre were going to come here at their age. I also knew that those two guys had little support here (at least, in message count). Everybody wanted Davey Johnson (including me), but Davey has also said he wasn't interested, so I knew he wasn't coming. I was secretly rooting for a 1-year contract for Mack and a wait until next year, but instead I get Dusty.

    For all that's been said in this thread, I agree with Stormy and others who say this signals a disfunction in the whole Reds organization. I think it was Team Clark who said the Reds had trouble even filling the lower level jobs on this team. How sad. That would make it appear to be hopeless for a long time, but I think not. Many have asked what causes a man with the business skills of Bob Castellini to hire a Dusty Baker. Here's why. When Ford was in trouble, what did they do? They hired Alan Mulally, a guy who was successful someplace else to fix their company. The old, old philosophy is if he can fix "this" company, he can fix our company. That's what this was all about. Didn't Bob interview Lou before taking over and maybe even Torre. He wanted an "expert" and this is what he apparently thinks Baker is.
    Your owner said he wanted to contend for championships right away instead of waiting, so that's what he's doing. Apparently he thinks that the players a mostly in place to win now.

    As for remaining the follow the Reds, I had to ask myself if it could be any worse than Boone, Miley, or Narron. The answer came back a resounding, "no". So, if I stuck with them through that I have no choice but to stick with them through this. Like it or not.

    For too long I have been preaching that in order to win championships, we had to have someone who has won something to lead the team. Now we have it. It's not exactly who I had in mind, but that goal (at least for me) is accomplished. The rest of it is up to question until about the middle of next year. I imagine those who steadfastly supported Miley, Narron, and lately Mack as well as Krivsky when we were winning (and even when we were not) will be less critical. But after tomorrow, he'll be our leader. I hope he's very successful.

  12. #551
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt700wlw View Post
    I heard it being a factor...heard it, with my own ears..


    I was very sad when I heard it...because, in this day and age, we should be beyond that kind of crap.


    Thankfully, I didn't hear it on a show that I produce
    We should be, but unfortunately we're not, Matt.

    But I think it's a very very small minority.

  13. #552
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    To throw the race card out there now is just lazy writing, IMO.
    Exactly. The fans have stood behind Marvin Lewis. They come to Red games to see Jr. Chad Johnson is currently one of the best loved Bengal players. And any criticism of Lewis has nothing to do with his race, but everything to do with his coaching.

    As a fan I am downright insulted that just because I hate the hiring of Baker it has something to do with race. And if fans are critical of Baker during the season it has to be because of race?

    Some are playing the race card already huh? Enough of this already.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  14. #553
    On the brink wolfboy's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    I was away all weekend tending to other business and nowhere near radio or computer. Sometimes I like to get away from all of it. I got home this evening to this. What a couple of days, huh?

    I kept looking over all the candidates for this job and came back underwhelmed. All of them. I knew neither Larussa nor Torre were going to come here at their age. I also knew that those two guys had little support here (at least, in message count). Everybody wanted Davey Johnson (including me), but Davey has also said he wasn't interested, so I knew he wasn't coming. I was secretly rooting for a 1-year contract for Mack and a wait until next year, but instead I get Dusty.

    For all that's been said in this thread, I agree with Stormy and others who say this signals a disfunction in the whole Reds organization. I think it was Team Clark who said the Reds had trouble even filling the lower level jobs on this team. How sad. That would make it appear to be hopeless for a long time, but I think not. Many have asked what causes a man with the business skills of Bob Castellini to hire a Dusty Baker. Here's why. When Ford was in trouble, what did they do? They hired Alan Mulally, a guy who was successful someplace else to fix their company. The old, old philosophy is if he can fix "this" company, he can fix our company. That's what this was all about. Didn't Bob interview Lou before taking over and maybe even Torre. He wanted an "expert" and this is what he apparently thinks Baker is.
    Your owner said he wanted to contend for championships right away instead of waiting, so that's what he's doing. Apparently he thinks that the players a mostly in place to win now.

    As for remaining the follow the Reds, I had to ask myself if it could be any worse than Boone, Miley, or Narron. The answer came back a resounding, "no". So, if I stuck with them through that I have no choice but to stick with them through this. Like it or not.

    For too long I have been preaching that in order to win championships, we had to have someone who has won something to lead the team. Now we have it. It's not exactly who I had in mind, but that goal (at least for me) is accomplished. The rest of it is up to question until about the middle of next year. I imagine those who steadfastly supported Miley, Narron, and lately Mack as well as Krivsky when we were winning (and even when we were not) will be less critical. But after tomorrow, he'll be our leader. I hope he's very successful.
    It can be a lot worse than Boone, Miley or Narron because we're going to pay a lot more money for Baker. You can have twenty guys named Belisle, Jarvis, Parris, or Villone, but it's the guy named Milton that really hurts. If anything, Dusty Baker is our Eric Milton. We can get the same level of ineptitude for much less. I just don't even know what to do with this organization anymore.
    How do we know he's not Mel Torme?

  15. #554
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    That ignores the argument though. I'm suggesting that trends seem to indicate a shift in the way many FO's are approaching their businesses (including big market teams like NY and Boston) and many of these changes take advantage of inefficiencies in the traditional approach.

    I'm looking forward and suggesting that if the Reds don't also, they will find it even more difficult to compete consistently in the future than they find it now. You're looking in the past and suggesting it won't matter.
    A) I don't consider 1997-2006 a bygone era.

    B) We both know that there's more than one successful front office model out there.

    C)I hate the word "compete." The Reds have spent seven seasons trying to compete. Right or wrong, hiring Dusty Baker tells me they aspire to win. Wouldn't be my plan, but he's a good fit for what has been the stated house plan.
    Last edited by M2; 10-14-2007 at 09:57 PM.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  16. #555
    Member Sabo Fan's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    I'll admit to perhaps being a bit rash in my thinking when I first got news of the Baker hiring. Like many, I immediately began fearing the worst: Dunn's option will be declined because he walks too much, EdE will never again see the light of day, Bailey and Cueto have already scheduled their Tommy John surgery, and the Neifi Perez Era can only be a few short weeks away.

    Now that I've had the better part of a day to stew over this latest hire by the Reds, I've decided to put off my final opinion on bringing Baker in until I see what this team looks like come the first of March, and probably until at least the middle of May to see what direction Baker has this team going.

    I'd be lying if I said I wasn't dissapointed, bewildered and just plain mad after I first heard about this hiring. I couldn't stand Baker when he was with the Giants and thought those teams he had won despite his best efforts. In Chicago I came to dislike him more, partly becuase of his ridiculous comments regarding pitch counts and offensive philosophy, and partly because I dislike the Cubs so much. Now that he's the manager of my favorite team, I can't really say that I like him any more, but I'll at least give the guy a shot.

    What troubles me about this move the most is the fact that Baker has never shown an ability to handle a young team. He's managed teams dominated by veterans and has never seemed to be able to develop young talent. One of the reasons I was genuinely excited about the Reds for the first time since the Griffey trade was because of the young talent this team has in Bruce, Votto, Bailey, Cueto, Hamilton, EdE, Phillips and Hamilton. Surround them with Dunn, Harang, Arroyo and Griffey and that's an exciting club that would be fun towatch. Now I'm extremely concerned that none of these young players will be able to live up to their potential because

    1. Baker doesn't have the managerial skill set to get them there and
    2. Some of them may reach that potential somewhere else because this hire signals a major shift in the direction of this team.

    As I've said, I'll ultimately reserve judgement on Baker until next season, but at this point my optimism towards this team heading into next season is extremely tempered.
    "It's still a long way to the top if we want to rock'n'roll, but at least they dumped the tuba player."
    --M2


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