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Thread: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

  1. #31
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    People act as if Baker's blind spots can't be corrected. They can. Look, he's a smart guy, and he's got to know by now that things like OBP and pitch counts matter. For people in the industry, these notions have become de rigueur -- commonly known and accepted. It's not outsider knowledge any more. If Baker refutes it, he ain't getting a job.

    What he has always possessed, though, are qualities you can't teach -- leadership, drive, the ability to communicate -- and it's that stuff (combined with his track record as a manager and player) that gets players' attention and respect.
    The notion that old baseball men tied into conventional wisdom will willingly to change their beliefs is likely folly. Baker has a certain style mixed with certain beliefs that quite frankly are archaeic and symbolic of a time long in the past. Old baseball men blew up young pitchers' arms without thinking twice, and Baker is guilty of the same thing. Old baseball men also thought that on-base percentage wasn't worth the paper it's printed on, and Baker is guilty of the same thing.

    The fact that Branch Rickey - 60 years ago - saw more value in on-base percentage than Dusty Baker does today is quite telling.

    Again -- if he's so clueless, why did he win so much?
    In San Francisco, Baker was blessed to have on his roster one of the four or five greatest players in the history of baseball right through that player's entire extended peak. It doesn't matter how much of a jerk you think Barry Bonds is, or if you think Barry Bonds took steroids ... the fact is Bonds did produce at a level nobody in this game has seen since Ted Williams during Baker's entire tenure in San Francisco. That absurd level of production out of just one player gave Baker a massive headstart on every other manager in baseball.

    And then in Chicago, Baker was handed the keys to one of the best starting rotations in baseball. He abused that rotation, and two years after arriving had shattered it to pieces (despite adding Greg Maddux to it along the way).

    During Baker's four years in Chicago, his offense never improved, and his pitching staff went in the toilet ... no thanks in small part to his own actions.
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  3. #32
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    Isn't that the Billy Beane theory?
    Beane wants a manager who takes advantage of the set of players and skills which Beane has placed on the roster and works with the rest of the organization. What doesn't matter to Beane is that the guy has a big name or reputation.

    The Xs and Os of baseball aren't rocket science and the ability to manage and lead a group of guys, while important, isn't an extremely rare skill. Bottom line is that talent matters more than anything else and he wants a manager that makes the most of it.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  4. #33
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85 View Post
    good players?
    It's why I am not a huge fan of Torre. Joe won in NY because he had the best teams. I believe a manager only has a minimal impact and talent is by far the biggest factor in the winning equation.
    By that logic, I guess Sparky wasn't a good manager. He had the best team in the 70s and only won twice. He had the best team with the Tigers in '84.

    Torre's players swear by him. For 12 years he kept a lockerroom of egos together and on the same page. He acted as a buffer between the team and the Boss. I don't think just anyone could do that. He handled the NY media (something most observers say LaRussa could never do) If Torre's not a good manager, then I guess there's no such thing as a good manager.

    Being a leader of men has to play into the equation. This isn't fantasy baseball or a computer SIM game where you're plugging in stats and getting somewhat predictable results.
    "The players make the manager, it's never the other way." - Sparky Anderson

  5. #34
    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    I know this is an unending drumbeat, but besides Prior and Wood, what other pitchers is Dusty Baker alleged to have destroyed?

    I've seen some folks post information showing that some of Baker's pitchers were in the Top 10 of Pitcher Abuse Points (PAP), but not many; with the most glaring being Wood & Prior in 2003.

    AlwaysRed had a great post on this at this link

    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showp...&postcount=106

    Some pitchers are more capable of being workhorses than others. And I think you might see a pattern of pitchers under Baker being on one year and off the next and yes that might be from overusing. WOY noted he relies heavily on his relievers and with the Reds, that might not be such a good thing unless there is a marked improvement.

    This hysteria makes me think of the movie The Russians Are Coming, The Russians Are Coming!
    He learned to manage through Roger Craig who also destroyed arms.
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

  6. #35
    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    Endorsement from Rotoworld:

    Dusty Baker may be the favorite to take over as Cincinnati's manager after interviewing for the job on Thursday.

    We just don't see how this is a good fit, but the Reds want a manager with a name and Sparky Anderson isn't coming out of retirement. Homer Bailey owners should be especially worried.
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

  7. #36
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_Davis View Post
    Endorsement from Rotoworld:

    Dusty Baker may be the favorite to take over as Cincinnati's manager after interviewing for the job on Thursday.

    We just don't see how this is a good fit, but the Reds want a manager with a name and Sparky Anderson isn't coming out of retirement. Homer Bailey owners should be especially worried.

    Kremcheck is upgrading his facilities as we speak

  8. #37
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by NJReds View Post
    Torre's players swear by him.
    It is interesting that in his 12+ years as a manager in the NL before going to NY Torre had a less than pedestrian managerial record of 894-1003. I guess he got a smarter between leaving the Cardinals in 95 and joining the Yanks in 96.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  9. #38
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85 View Post
    It is interesting that in his 12+ years as a manager in the NL before going to NY Torre had a less than pedestrian managerial record of 894-1003. I guess he got a smarter between leaving the Cardinals in 95 and joining the Yanks in 96.
    I'm not going to get into a numbers game. You say he's a bad manager, I respectfully disagree after watching him for the last 12 years in NY.

    I guess there's no way to quantify a good manager. Because a lot of successful managers are pegged as 'lucky' or 'high payroll' or the always popular 'the team won despite him.'
    "The players make the manager, it's never the other way." - Sparky Anderson

  10. #39
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by NJReds View Post
    You say he's a bad manager
    nice strawman. All I did was point out the numbers that show he hasn't been anything special at any stop other than the Yankees.

    Managers get too much credit whether the teams wins or loses. The managerial selection will have a lot less of an impact than the composition of the roster.
    Last edited by flyer85; 10-12-2007 at 02:14 PM.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  11. #40
    Member Marc D's Avatar
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    We as fans have little positive to take from the Reds organization but there seems to be hope due to youth, promising young offensive players, and the start of some organizational young pitching talent/depth.

    So now, just when we may have that ever so slim gleam of hope what does the reds FO decide to do? Bring in a vet loving abuser of pitchers who doesn't understand offensive baseball.

    You couldn't find a worse manager for the Reds right now imo.

  12. #41
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by NJReds View Post
    I'm not going to get into a numbers game. You say he's a bad manager, I respectfully disagree after watching him for the last 12 years in NY.

    I guess there's no way to quantify a good manager. Because a lot of successful managers are pegged as 'lucky' or 'high payroll' or the always popular 'the team won despite him.'
    That's the real point I think. You simply can't measure managers by wins and losses, because those are so heavily influenced by both the talent made available and random fluctuations.

    However, you can evaluate the manager on specific things such as lineup construction logical, tactical decision making, pitcher use, etc.

    Outside of keeping people happy, Baker doesn't do anything particularly well. And there is strong evidence that he's actually done harm.

    My constant gripe about all the praise heaped on LaRussa and Torre is that they get credited for the successes of their extremely talented teams rather than anything which they specifically do outside of the clubhouse.

    That's opposed to a guy like Bobby Cox, who routinely gets the absolute maximum performances from young position players and gets solid performances out of pitchers who are terrible elsewhere.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  13. #42
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85 View Post
    It is interesting that in his 12+ years as a manager in the NL before going to NY Torre had a less than pedestrian managerial record of 894-1003. I guess he got a smarter between leaving the Cardinals in 95 and joining the Yanks in 96.
    The roster I'm sure has a lot to do with Torre's success in NY...however, I don't think just anybody could keep all those egos from getting in the way of the ultimate goal.

    Torre probably wouldn't be a good manager in a smaller market, developmentally based organization....which is what the Reds are (I think) trying to become....(well, the smaller market part they've nailed )
    Last edited by Matt700wlw; 10-12-2007 at 02:36 PM.

  14. #43
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt700wlw View Post
    Torre probably wouldn't be a good manager in a smaller market, developmentally based organization....which is what the Reds are (I think) trying to become....(well, the smaller market part they've nailed )
    To that extent, I don't think LaRussa would be a good fit for New York. Not because he's not a good manager, but because of what he'd have to deal with (Steinbrenner, an aggressive and huge media throng).

    I don't think that Torre would be a good fit in Cincy, either. I'd take him over Dusty. I think Torre will go to St. Louis or Los Angeles (eventually) IF the Yankees don't bring him back.

    I could see a scenario where the Yankees and Torre agree to a 1-year deal. His 'farewell tour' if you will. He manages next year. Mattingly takes the helm for the opening of the new stadium in 2009.
    "The players make the manager, it's never the other way." - Sparky Anderson

  15. #44
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt700wlw View Post
    The roster I'm sure has a lot to do with Torre's success in NY...however, I don't think just anybody could keep all those egos from getting in the way of the ultimate goal.

    Torre probably wouldn't be a good manager in a smaller market, developmentally based organization....which is what the Reds are (I think) trying to become....(well, the smaller market part they've nailed )
    Sometimes a good manager is one who keeps the high-priced talent from killing each other.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

  16. #45
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    Re: Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    So why bother worrying about who the manager is?
    A good manager probably won't get much more out of the talent he has at hand than they normally give him. You can put as much stock as you want in team chemistry, intangibles, and so on, but ultimately, the manager can't make his players any better than they are. He won't turn a .250/.300/.310 utility guy into an All Star.

    However, a bad manager can sabotage a team because he has ultimate control and say over lineups and pitcher usage. If you have a promising young OF who could conceivably post a .280/.370/.430 line over the course of a season, but instead start a washed up .300/.330/.410 hitter over him because the guy is a "veteran" and "knows how to win," you're going to decrease your team's run production. If you refuse to use a LHP who can only get right handed batters out as a LOOGY, you're more likely to see your pitching give up more runs.

    The best managers maximize the resources at their disposal, but won't get much more (if any, depending who you ask) production out of his players. Bad managers will poorly utilize those resources and ultimately cause your team to produce less than it should.


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