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Thread: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

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    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

    For two franchises with so much in common, I can't think of a more divergent approach to building a small market team than the Reds and the Indians.

    The Indians are a modern model of intelligent design. What they've done since they dismantled and hired Shapiro is state of the art new school goodness.

    The Reds, we shoot ourselves in the foot time and time again, then stop and reload to shoot yet again.

    The Dusty Baker hiring was the final bit of proof necessary to define our approach. Old School. As Redsland once said, "Ye Olde School".

    It's not up for debate any more, not that it really ever was.

    So now we're left with a very clear definition of who we are.

    But it doesn't mean we can't win. We're not going to be the new thought team that so many here would love. That ship has sailed, and we're not on it. We're on the paddlewheel that cruises by on the Ohio.

    We're not going to be a Honda Accord. The best we can hope for is to be the finest pimped out '63 Impala that money can buy.

    And after we get over the shock, we may get a better ride than we first thought we might. At least it won't be dull, I imagine.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62 View Post
    And after we get over the shock, we may get a better ride than we first thought we might.
    On a more serious note, you are right that these two teams are a contrasting ideology. But why not try to emulate as "model" that has shown success? Especially since the Indians are a franchise, as far as size/market strength, that is very similar to the Reds.

    The Indians have a 60 mil payroll, which is less then the Reds. They are doing something right up there, and I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out what it is. But it does take some FO people who have some sort of clue, and I'm beginning to see the Reds FO is more interested in "symbolism over substance".
    Last edited by Chip R; 10-14-2007 at 09:51 AM.
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    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    On a more serious note, you are right that these two teams are a contrasting ideology. But why not try to emulate as "model" that has shown success? Especially since the Indians are a franchise, as far as size/market strength, that is very similar to the Reds.

    The Indians have a 60 mil payroll, which is less then the Reds. They are doing something right up there, and I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out what it is. But it does take some FO people who have some sort of clue, and I'm beginning to see the Reds FO is more interested in "symbolism over substance".
    The Indians have basically had management continuity for 17 years with good GM's (Hart/Shapiro). That has allowed them to build a good minor league system. This is the key to their success IMO, not some high concept new school approach.

    That's not to say that their approaches aren't different, because as you say, they are, but I think that in itself is an oversimplification of why the indians have had success and the reds haven't.
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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

    Eric Wedge barely kept his job just last year. This is the first year it has come together, and Shapiro's "genius" is suddenly appreciated by the masses in a 96-win playoff season---sort of like O'Dowd, who is suddenly at genius status instead of taking the Rockies into irrelevance. This is making me Kings Island teacups dizzy to the point of nausea.

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Eric Wedge barely kept his job just last year. This is the first year it has come together, and Shapiro's "genius" is suddenly appreciated by the masses in a 96-win playoff season---sort of like O'Dowd, who is suddenly at genius status instead of taking the Rockies into irrelevance. This is making me Kings Island teacups dizzy to the point of nausea.
    That's a compelling story when only viewing W-L records but it ignores an awful, awful lot the least of which is their DiamondView system, the sabr brains they've imported to support it, and the fact that this year is the culmination of a planned process....
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    That's a compelling story when only viewing W-L records but it ignores an awful, awful lot the least of which is their DiamondView system, the sabr brains they've imported to support it, and the fact that this year is the culmination of a planned process....
    Yup, read those articles a year or two ago. Any success, no matter what the method is going to be seen as "the culmination of a planned process." What team says they threw a few darts, took several high risk gambles, and gosh darn it, it just all worked out this year? I think the best you can say at this point is "mixed results."

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I think the best you can say at this point is "mixed results."
    How many teams do you think realistically will have a better record than the Indians over the next 4 years?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    How many teams do you think realistically will have a better record than the Indians over the next 4 years?
    Fortunes change pretty quickly in today's game, unless you are the Yankees or Red Sox. The rotation is still unsettled, the bullpen has been better but is still shaky and could be back to bad again next year. I'd be careful about making bold predictions about the Indians, but then its unlikely that four years from now I'm going to be PMing you to remind you of it, isn't it?

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    Re: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Fortunes change pretty quickly in today's game, unless you are the Yankees or Red Sox. The rotation is still unsettled, the bullpen has been better but is still shaky and could be back to bad again next year. I'd be careful about making bold predictions about the Indians, but then its unlikely that four years from now I'm going to be PMing you to remind you of it, isn't it?
    At best the Indians rebuilding process has been hit or miss but you have no opinion concerning how many teams seem poised to have a better next few years?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management


    Here's
    a good article about the Indians software system (Diamondview) for anyone else who is interested.

    Every morning at 6:45, DiamondView electronically collects game statistics, injury reports and updated roster information for the nearly 6,000 major- and minor-league players in professional baseball. This allows Indians executives and coaches daily access to detailed player information.

    The database also provides the Indians with:

    The ability to create customized lists to analyze what makes players and teams successful.

    An efficient tool to track trends.

    An objective way to test long-held beliefs about player development.

    A fast, reliable resource in trade and contract negotiations.

    "To have one source . . . and be able to access it quickly, it sounds relatively easy but it is not," said Boston Red Sox assistant general manager Josh Byrnes, who worked for the Tribe from 1994 to 1999. "The Indians might be the only team that's pulled it off yet."
    Last edited by pedro; 10-14-2007 at 11:29 PM.
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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...articleid=6829

    While fans in places like Pittsburgh, Kansas City and St. Petersburg might have a problem buying into hope and faith, the participants in this year’s League Championship Series show that a large payroll does not automatically guarantee a team an invitation to October. In fact, three of the four teams still standing began the season with payrolls among the eight lowest in the major leagues. The Indians ranked 23rd among the 30 clubs at $62 million, while the Rockies were 25th at $54 million, and the Diamondbacks were 26th at $52 million. The Red Sox are the last of the big spenders still playing, as their Opening Day payroll of $143 million was second in the majors only to the $190 million spent by the Yankees, who have already been knocked off by the Indians in the ALDS.

    So, what does it mean, with three low-payroll franchises making it to the final four? “That it can be done,” Indians General Manager Mark Shapiro said. “All three of those teams have done it the right way—with a solid organization and player development, good drafts, a presence in Latin America and the willingness to stick to their plan.” What Shapiro is too modest to say is that all three teams have GMs with ties to the Indians, as Colorado’s Dan O’Dowd and Arizona’s Josh Byrnes also worked for Cleveland. Even Boston manager Terry Francona has a Cleveland connection, as he spent a season working for the Indians as a special assistant to then-GM John Hart in 2001 after being fired as Philadelphia’s manager.

    It does not surprise Francona to see the Indians make it this far with a low payroll and a strong Cleveland influence with the Rockies and Diamondbacks. “There have been a lot of good people come through that system in Cleveland,” Francona said. “They do things so well. Their foundation for what they do is based on a lot of intelligent people who care a lot about people. It’s a nice combination. They’re run a lot of good people through there. They’ve dispersed out through the league to a lot of different places and had a lot of success. What far outweighs everything else, though, is they’re really good people and that makes a difference.”

    The Indians made the playoffs six times in a seven-year span from 1995-2001, at which point Hart stepped down and Shapiro was promoted from Assistant GM. Shapiro began a rebuilding program in 2002 that started with the highly unpopular trade in which he dealt ace pitcher Bartolo Colon to Montreal for a package of three young players that included center fielder Grady Sizemore, left-hander Cliff Lee, and middle infielder Brandon Phillips. “That’s what makes this so satisfying,” said Shapiro, “that all our guys have been through the pain of rebuilding together. They’ve grown and matured together. All of these players have been through a lot together.” However, Shapiro downplays the importance of the size of each team’s payroll during the playoffs. “Once you’re on the field playing the game payroll is not a factor. It’s just two teams playing baseball.”

    However, the fact that so many smaller-revenue teams have made it this far brings a smile to Selig’s face as does the fact that the Yankees were only team to make the playoffs this year that also qualified last season. “The economic model we were using in the 1990s was broken,'” Selig told the Chicago Tribune’s Phil Rogers. “I don't think we really realized how badly it was broken. The same with the labor fights every four years. I don't think we really knew how much we were hurting ourselves. Fans did not want to hear about that. They want to know about the sport on the field, and that has never been better. I watch every game I can at home, and in September there were a lot of nights I didn't know which ones to watch because so many of them carried a lot of importance.”

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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    At best the Indians rebuilding process has been hit or miss but you have no opinion concerning how many teams seem poised to have a better next few years?
    With the volatility in the game, again, except for the Red Sox and Yankees in the current era, not really. It becomes an exercise in futility.

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    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

    So, what exactly does "old school" translate into the team that the Reds will put on the field in 2008?

    Are they going to suddenly bust the budget and buy up a boatload of vets for Dusty? Are they going to change scouting and evaluation policies? Are the young guys going to get banished to Chattanooga? Is this really a sea change for the Reds (M2's full monty old school)?

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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

    The Royals are 1/2 game behind the Indians. If the Royals win tonight and the Indians lose, does falling into last place trigger the firing of Eric Wedge?

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    Re: Reds vs. Indians.... contrasting styles of management

    The Royals are 1/2 game behind the Indians. If the Royals win tonight and the Indians lose, does falling into last place trigger the firing of Eric Wedge?
    Just debug DiamondView?
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