0 Value Over Replacement Poster
"Sit over here next to Johnathan (Bench)...sit right here, he's smart."--Sparky Anderson
Did anyone else see Chad jerk away from Marvin while he was trying to talk to him on the sidelines today? Look familiar?
Publicly chewing out your quarterback one week and then publicly disrespecting the head coach shouldn't play well anytime. I can tolerate his childish nonsense to a point, but when things aren't going well (which has been often these past two seasons -- they're 6-12 in their last 18), he really comes across as a cancer. I'm not part of the team, so I don't know, but I suspect he's been causing problems ever since his halftime blowup during the Pittsburgh playoff game loss.
I'm not gossiping. I just happen to be great friends with a recent, former player. It's uglier than it ever has been and it's not gonna end good at all.
Some are mad at Chad for being frustrated? Some are mad at TJ for being frustrated? Oh is that laughable to me. I think my post below will prove that. I weave in and out of thoughts, so I apologize in advance. But I think it's a sad portrait of a man in WAY over his head.
`I would laugh at Marvin if I was Chad. He's proven with his actions that he is not competent or worthy of this job. I've said that since it became apparent his draft picks and free agent decisions have been consistently wrong. I have questioned almost every draft/free agent decision since the minute Chris Perry had his name called. Since that moment this franchise has been completely ran into the ground and only Carson, TJ, and Chad are keeping us from 2001. I'm almost reminded of the heyday of Harold Green, Jeff Blake, and Carl Pickens. Honestly Chad and TJ should be doing whatever they can to get out of here. Their window is shrinking everyday and the team they play for is ran by an arrogant coach who deflects blame on everyone but himself. From the outside he looks like the exact opposite of what a leader should be like. His draft picks alone show that he has no idea how to build a winning team. Football is the ultimate team sport. Yes you must have talent, but without a fundamental feeling of a true family you can never accomplish tasks when they get the most difficult. Anyone remember halftime after Carson got his knee broken? That alone shows you that Marvin had no control or total respect from his players. You can see from his media interviews and his shameful blaming of everyone but himself that he has no idea how to build a team. Bill Belichick has earned the right to be short and sweet with the media. The fans those papers work for should obviously just trust in his work. Almost weekly Marvin owes us more than we get. And with the way he drafts criminals and players with shaky pasts he should be going out of his way to prove himself to us. I've never seen someone ride the wave of a 11-5 fluke(Kyle Orton/NFC north/ season so much
Sadly football is nothing like baseball. There is that gigantic gray area. We all know who is good in baseball. Football? We have to rely on reputation or the words of others unless we watch film like a loser. I do. What happens with college players and NFL players? The typical fan looks at end of year stats like sacks and tries to somehow correlate that to the worth of a player. Football doesn't work that way. Not even a little bit. There are players in this league that are a dime a dozen yet they are rewarded with superstar money. Rudi Johnson? Who couldn't run behind Willie Anderson, Rich Braham, and Eric Steinbach? NEVER pay big money for a RB unless they have home run potential. The signing of Rudi Johnson was just miserable. Steinbach or Rudi? Hmm seems easy right? Not with this staff.
What about the Offense? Do people ever blame the offense? They should. It's an inefficient offense. The vertical passing game of the past is no more. Even the Colts are using the dink and dunk to destroy teams. The Bengals? I can't remember us using that play right in front of the MIKE linebacker. How many times have the Bengals been 2nd and 4 or 2nd and 3 and blown it because of being so predictable? One yard up the middle and then a fifteen yard post into double coverage that gets tipped. Maintaining the clock and controlling the game is what wins in football. Not the run and gun style. The Rams won one super bowl that way and that was because they were lucky enough to control the clock with Faulk and they had a great defense. If the Bengals want to compete in the near future they MUST focus on being more efficient on offense and cutting Rudi Johnson.
I was on record stating how bad this team would be. It's not gonna get better anytime soon. They have no character or class and that stems from their arrogant, rude head coach. Sadly he will be around for a long, long time. If Bruce Coslet had to basically resign than we better get used to Marvin and his arrogant, idiotic draft picks every year. I truly feel this team has the least talent of any team in the NFL on defense. I said that before the year and nothing has changed my mind.
Leon Hall couldn't run with Dwayne Jarrett or get within five yards of Ted Ginn. I think that should raise a little bit of a red flag.
His drafting history is overall so bad if I posted it I think it would stink through your individual computer screen. The only picks he has hit with are the three obvious top players on the board (Carson, Joseph, Steinbach) no coach would have passed on those players when they fell. Steinbach was a shock. The other "good" picks were just a desperate coach risking his team and the arrests/suspensions prove that failure. Nobody else was gonna draft Henry, Nicholson, or Thurman that high. Oh well, here it goes.
03- The pre arrogant draft. Marvin goes with the character guys or the obvious choices. The only questionable pick is Washington because of his neck injury. But Marvin hadn't been treated like a god yet. He probably trusted his scouts and stayed within the framework more in this draft. Is it shocking to me that this was his only truly good draft? No, because he had obvious picks at every slot. Without Marvin having the luck of Carson graduating I would suggest he would have already been ran out of town. Not just disliked by a growing margin every week.
1 Carson Palmer USC
2 Eric Steinbach Iowa
3 Kelley Washington Tennessee
4 Dennis Weathersby Oregon State
4 Jeremi Johnson Western Kentucky
5 Khalid Abdullah Mars Hill
6 Langston Moore South Carolina
7 Scott Kooistra North Carolina State
7 Elton Patterson Central Florida
1 Chris Perry Michigan - Arrogant pick. Riding high on his 8-8 record Marvin tries to Belichick the draft. He drafts an injury prone RB with an attitude problem history at Michigan. Perry has about as much guts as the cowardly lion.
2 Keiwan Ratliff Florida - Keiwan Ratliff- Arrogant pick. Absolutely not enough speed to compete in the NFL. Marvin felt and said that his coaching of technique would be enough. Sure. Keiwan also is a sidebar to another of my rants about the poor coaching of the Bengals. Does special teams matter in football? I love Jim Tressel and I'm sure some of you know that. But does he have it wrong in treating special teams as 1/3 of a football game? Why is special teams so important? Field position. Did Keiwan flip the field one time for this team in three years? People used to openly laugh before he caught the ball knowing he would run backwards for three yards and try and get the corner. Usually the long snapper would run him down for a three yard gain. It became funny to me. Now what about our KOS? Is Shayne Graham cutting it? Is allowing the opposing team to receive the ball on at least the 30 yard line a viable option? I dunno, it seems like common sense that the closer you let the other team get to your goal line, the easier it is to score. But year after year we get to watch the opposing team start at the 35 and with our defense that might as well be the 50. In my old school football views, field position and the overall kicking game is more important than the 53 man. I don't care about lack of depth. I would either not pay for Shayne Graham or I would go with a 52 man roster. Basically I wouldn't go with Shayne Graham.
2 Madieu Williams Maryland - Sorta hit here. Overrated player also though.
3 Caleb Miller Arkansas- Another arrogant pick. Player that wasn't even considered a top five pick. Complete bust in the NFL and arguably one of the worst players in the league.
3 Landon Johnson Purdue- Decent player. Not bad for 3rd round pick. Nothing spectacular
4 Matthias Askew Michigan State - Surprise. Bad attitude and drugs.
5 Robert Geathers Georgia - completely overrated player. Marvin agrees to pay him 5.3 million a year later for no reason. Picks up 4 garbage sacks in one game and therefore gets a reputation as an every down player. He's not, never will be. The average fan trusts Marvin and thinks Geathers is honestly good. Sadly not true. I'll give Marvin credit though. This is obviously a good pick if you have enough common sense to not let his rare shining moments blind you from his true abilities.
4 Stacy Andrews Mississippi- He's horrible. Watch the game today?
5 Maurice Mann Nevada - 5th round pick that literally was never heard from. NEVER.
6 Greg Brooks Southern Mississippi
7 Casey Bramlet Wyoming
1 David Pollack Georgia - Very short arms. Tweener. Absolutely not a 1st round pick.
2 Odell Thurman Georgia - Surprise again. Bad attitude, terrible teammate, convict. Even when he played he played without discipline and disregarded the little things. Something Marvin Lewis doesn't realize. The guys with criminal histories and/or a history of getting kicked off their team probably aren't what you want to build a team around.
3 Chris Henry West Virginia - I don't need to say a word. He's the definition of why Marvin Lewis has no idea how to build a team.
4 Eric Ghiaciuc Central Michigan - 4th round. Really small and really bad. But it's not like Marvin ever hits with his drafts.
5 Adam Kieft Central Michigan
6 Tab Perry UCLA - Nice pick. Probably from Simmons. He's a very good coach no matter what crap talent he gets.
7 Jonathan Fanene Utah
1 Johnathan Joseph South Carolina - Obvious pick. Good pick. Still surprised that a defensive "guru" wouldn't realize that 4 Deion Sanders would be worthless without a halfway decent push up the middle or pass rush off the edge. Oh well.
2 Andrew Whitworth Louisiana State - Another cap pick. Let's draft Whitworth and let Steinbach walk because we don't want to pay guards big money. We would rather pay short armed defensive ends that pad their stats week one against a drunk Damon Huard. He wasn't expecting to play. Half of the sacks Geathers and Smith get are coverage sacks against the Kyle Orton/Damon Huard/Charlie Frye's of the world. It's just sad that our coaches can't realize this like the average fan can. Steinbach then goes to Cleveland and is having a pro bowl year. He would easily be the best lineman on the team and his pulling guard capabilities were a huge part of our team. Whitworth or Andrews gonna pull for you now? I'm sure glad we resigned Willie over Steinbach. That's a smart move.
3 Frostee Rucker USC -Another player with sexual assault charge. Honestly nobody had him higher than 5th on any board. I would think a rape charge wouldn't move you up two rounds. Oh well, he's a Marvin guy and that's all we need to know. He's a 3rd round pick that has played in exactly two NFL games.
4 Domata Peko Michigan State - Nice pick. 5% landing percentage isn't bad is it?
5 A.J. Nicholson Florida State - Another guy with criminal past. Scout.com message boards and every Florida State fan knew about his sexual assault past. Rumors were also already out there about him being involved with a robbery of a TEAMMATE with Fred Rouse. Is this how you build a team? I honestly think this is when I realized we hired the absolute worst person for the overall task of winning a title and building a team we could all be proud of.
6 Reggie McNeal Texas A&M - Attitude problems in college. Well documented. Proceeded to always be in the center of Chris Henry or Odell Thurman's arrests
7 Ethan Kilmer Penn State
7 Bennie Brazell Louisiana State
1 Leon Hall Michigan - Uh. I guess if you think the draft was weak you go Hall. Myself? I watch film and realize he doesn't have NFL closing speed. Another point? Without a pass rush he doesn't have the ability to succeed in the NFL. Hell, only Deion can work without a pass rush. Will be shocked if this turns out to be a good pick. Geoff Hobson and Marvin just love his attitude and work ethic. I guess they had to choir boy after years of embarrassing them self. Again, if Dwayne Jarrett runs by you easily that means you aren't a top pick. Michigan has a miserable secondary and rarely do their db's progress once on campus. Mundy, Shazor, Brown, Harrison and about ten others come to mind. I'm damn glad of that usually, not here though. Maybe Michigan just doesn't evaluate talent like they should and neither do the Bengals. That would explain why Ohio State turns 2 and 3 * Db's into top NFL picks. Hell, they can turn a career WR into one in about six weeks (Gamble). Sorry for going off subject, I just love talking about the coaching difference at OSU and Michigan. I digress.
2 Kenny Irons Auburn - Another injury prone RB. Do you draft that in the 2nd round when you did NOTHING in the off season to enhance your defense? Of course not. Why did the Bengals then? Because Marvin is arrogant and actually believed he could turn water into wine. Not surprisingly he was sadly mistaken and we know the story on Irons. Arrogance is a big theme with Marvin Lewis. It's my reasoning for his failure as an NFL coach. The only reason I could have even thought this move was halfway decent was if Rudi Johnson is getting cut next year. Now you can't cut Rudi unless you trust Watson and DeDe Dorsey. I would prefer that until Irons/Perry gets healthy. Paying big money for a RB in the NFL is just plain idiotic unless it's the absolute top tier home run hitter. 3.8 yards with no receiving skills is about as pointless as it comes for that kind of cash. Hopefully the Bengals take the cap hit this year and avoid the bigger hit in 09 or pay him until 2010.
4 Marvin White TCU - Nobody had him going this high. Marvin loved how he hit though. He's now behind a 7th rounder that couldn't play on Notre Dame's defense. Is that scary for a 4th rounder or what? But he sure can hit hard. I guess if this 1963 we might be onto something. In 2007 you better be able to cover in space or you will get picked apart into shreds. Destroyed. Watch his NFL.com draft tape and you can tell he's either a tiny linebacker or out of the NFL in 3 years. I'm voting he goes the Maurice Mann route. Marvin who?
5 Jeff Rowe Nevada - good teams find depth here. good teams don't waste a 5th round pick on someone that literally should never play a snap. Do the Bengals have the talent and depth level to draft Jeff Rowe in the 5th round? Of course not. It's just the way of Marvin. Doesn't make a damn bit of sense. But I think I'm somewhat proving the guy makes little sense most of the time. If he was a Reds gm or manager he would be roundly disliked. He's just lucky we made the playoffs and the fans here have no expectations.
6 Dan Santucci Notre Dame
7 Chinedum Ndukwe Notre Dame- The fact that he is on the roster and playing should be the ultimate sign in the talent level of this franchise. My friends that root for Notre Dame claim he is one of the worst 2 year starters in the history of the program. He got benched his senior year at times. He is 200 lbs and can't cover in space nor tackle. I really have no clue what he does but take up one of the minimum 11 players we need. I guess that's why he is out there. I've talked to someone that used to play a HUGE part in the UC football program and then later was at Notre Dame during Ndukwes time there. He told me at Mulligans some time ago that he couldn't believe Ndukwe got drafted. Said he thought he wouldn't get drafted in a 14 round draft.
I'm a bitter fan, not angry or trying to be mean spirited though. I'm just like many on the ORG about Dusty Baker. This team is in shambles and it will be for the recent future because of Marvin Lewis. People complain about injuries to me and all I do is smile and just say "ok".
Did Artrell Hawkins keep the Patriots from being seconds away from the Super Bowl? This is the NFL. EVERY team is decimated with injuries. The Bengals just draft so incredibly bad that they have no room for error and no depth. Free agency has been an utter disaster in the depth department also.
I'll just go over a few off the top of my head that are laughable and generic. I know that I hated almost every one of these moves at the time they occurred. I knew every player signed and Geoff Hobson wasn't going to fool me.
Dexter Jackson- Terrible in space and possibly could outrun Reggie Kelly. Doesn't wrap on tackles and usually talks trash when we are down big. At least he tries to be a leader or get fired up. I'll give him an A for effort also. I'm just sorry that I couldn't care less about effort at the professional level.
Edge Hartwell- Seriously. Why did we even waste the time? Proof Marvin was desperate and knew that his "execution" mantra was bs. The Bengals don't have any defensive talent. Being in the right spot and execution is part of being a talented player Marvin.
Antonio Chatman- Horrendous. Marvin gushed about his amazing return skills when he's clearly not even average. He had one lucky punt return and again that stat blinded Marvin. I seriously doubt he remembers that the Punter out kicked his coverage and Chatman had the best wall I've ever seen. I'm a UC grad, I remember on Sunday ticket. That was back when that Packers were about as talented as the Bengals are now. Other than that 85 yard run Chatman has never had a return longer than 37. He's had 6 catches in two years and about 8 drops. But Marvin loved him.
Sam Adams- That worked out about as well as Napoleon's invasion of Russia.
Kim Herring- Seeing the Raven pattern? I guess Marvin forgot that these guys were either grossly overweight or just products of a system. Kim Herring wasn't even good in Baltimore. That says about all you need to know.
Nate Webster- Surprise again. Ex Miami and Marvin talks about Ray Lewis. I will admit that injuries really derailed Nate. He looked abysmal before them though. He's still hanging around somewhere though in the NFL. Not bad by the usual Marvin standard.
Nick Luchey- Changed his name. Wasn't good under either name.
Anthony Mitchell- Just another terrible safety along the Dexter Jackson line. He actually shouldn't be called terrible. He made one or two plays.
Kevin Hardy- Slower than Sam Adams is now. He really was.
Carl Powell- Not a bad pickup. Decent depth. But an ex Redskins player. Sorta like the Wayne and Twins fetish. To me it's somewhat a sign of weakness in evaluation and not just saying you have familiarity. But that's just me.
John Thornton- Somewhat the epitome of this franchise. A player that should never be a 3 down player. Is it any surprise the Bengals get gashed no matter who teams with Thornton? He sounds like a great guy, but he is an absolute failure at controlling the line of scrimmage or getting any penetration. Justin Smith and Robert Geathers deserve the same kind of blame for this. I can count on one hand the times they have disrupted the rhythm of the opposing teams running game. What have the Bengals done with this quartet of lineman though? They have extended them all and tried to fool fans into thinking that the secondary is the problem. I just don't know if Marvin Lewis is truly this inflexible and incompetent? Or is he just arrogant and not willing to change?
Tory James- No argument here. Though he was afraid of contact he was a great signing and gave me some faith in Marvin right away. Stinks though. By the playoff year I already knew Marvin was the wrong guy. I still enjoyed the ride and just prayed he would hire Wade Phillips or someone that would switch to the 3-4. He got even more arrogant and that was the end of any hope with Marvin. He's proven to be a horrible leader for more than arrogance alone. Though that is key. Arrogance makes you inflexible, arrogance makes you lazy. The fact of the matter is that we have a man with sub par evaluating skills who is running this franchise. And because of Carson and the fluke of 05 we are stuck with little hope. Marvin himself needs a miracle.
Patrick Johnson- Another Raven who wasn't any good.
Some of this can be blamed on Mike Brown turning Cincinnati into NFL Siberia. I'd say he deserves most of the blame for the free agency part. But Marvin was the one that publicly was adamant about not overpaying just because we had a history of being terrible. He didn't wanna mess up the future. Like imagine what would have happened if we would have went for broke at the beginning? We might not have all the talent we have now and the great depth/roster structure.
This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.
I'm not being a snob, but yes I am. I don't think football fans have half the true knowledge of the sport as baseball fans do. Why is that? I think a little part of that is in my post above. There is a HUGE gray area in football and I even believe announcers/so called experts are utterly clueless.
I've been screaming for three years that David Carr was terrible, not the Texans pass blocking. Who took the blame though? The line. Why? Because in football fans/announcers/experts just look at stats and it's the ultimate team game. There are correlating factors that never seem to be considered. David Carr made his line terrible because he couldn't get through his progressions fast enough and he played like the average Jeff Tedford Qb. But god I heard that Matt Schaub was gonna get murdered this year every second. He has a little, but overall he's made a huge difference on the team.
TJ is sorta the same type thing. I don't think people remember when TJ was HATED by Cincy fans. I mean hated. He caught punts at the 3, just did absolutely stupid stuff. As soon as Carson came along and we actually had an accurate Qb TJ got good. That is what happened. TJ just at 25 suddenly learned how to play. It had nothing to do with a Qb knowing what he is doing.
I'm ranting tonight. I apologize. I'm just so frustrated with the Bengals and the Reds tonight. At least the Reds have young talent and seemingly are willing to gamble on a big name manager. I'm just glad I'm a lifelong Buckeye fan with ties to the University. Without that I would probably do nothing but watch the Coca Cola championship final on DVR anytime I watch tv l
This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.
Outstanding posts, Cedric, and thanks for taking the time to share all of that. Like I said, my perspective is from the outside looking in, so I'll readily defer to someone who knows more. I think you'll agree, though, that it would be natural for the typical fan to tune in on Sunday, see Chad chewing someone, and make a surface judgement of the situation.
Your posts need to be heard on some of the Bengals boards. There are plenty of critics on the two I read, especially given the 1-4 start, but there is still that core that is still in line for more Kool-Aid and will defend the organization to the bitter end.
Last edited by macro; 10-15-2007 at 10:53 AM.
I stopped watching after the Cleveland game...it's better on my blood pressure..however i will turn the radio on and listen for about 5 minutes just to get a feel to see how its going...i listened on the radio for about 10 minutes yesterday..as i turned the radio on KC had just scored,3 minutes later Carson fumbled, 5 minutes later he threw an interception...listened long enough to hear the bye hadn't helped any at all...another 3-13 season in the works....ended up watching The Odd Couple on TCM
wow, much angst in Bengal land. Winning is about acquiring talent through the draft. It is why Pittsburgh and Baltimore just tend to reload. They have front offices in place that can find the guys to play in their systems.
What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand
Ced, you're absolutely 100% on the mark. That's all I got to say.
Great post Ced!
I have been making similar points about Marvin, but not nearly as perfect as you just did. Great work.
Marvin is in way over his head.
My Sundays may become more productive...I refuse to let this team ruin my winter.