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Thread: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

  1. #376
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Someone who paid more attention back then than I did, tell me: Was Baker considered a hates-young-players pitcher-killer with the Giants, or did the bulk of the ridicule start with the Cubs?
    Not all who wander are lost

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  3. #377
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Santo Alcala View Post
    I don't want to go all in like you,
    I don't want the team to go all in. I'm pro rebuilding.

    But the club needed to decide between the two and I'd say it's made its choice. Can't fault them for sitting on the fence.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!!
    In a nutshell, yes. Figure out what it is you do and then do the hell out of it. If they fail at least they can say they gave it their best shot.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  4. #378
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Dusty Baker. Heh.

    I wish I had no words. But I do. The Reds' new manager is a complete and total Milo in the worst way. He burns pitchers. The guy has no clue how offense actually works. To call him a narcissist would be kind. Frankly, I think this move speaks volumes about how completely clueless the current ownership and front office actually is.

    Dusty Baker. Yeah. This is a guy who couldn't survive with a soulmate in Jim Hendry at the helm with a higher payroll franchise. The move here is idiotic at best. At best. At worst, it's a franchise killer.

    The Reds ownership and management have now screwed things up because, as usual, they have no idea where they really are.

    At this point, they are teh suck.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
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  5. #379
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Four thoughts/questions:

    1.) I don't see Bailey, Cueto, and Maloney living up to their hype at this point. Talented young pitchers like Jerome Williams and Kurt Ainsworth crapped out under Baker's watch. My hope is that the Reds cash in on the young pitchers now, trading them for key components of a championship team.

    I am far less concerned with Arroyo and Harang because of their age and proven ability to handle 200+ innings. Jason Schmidt had several healthy ace-like years in SF; no reason to believe Arroyo and Harang can't carry a staff again.

    2.) If you look at the history of final four basketball teams, whether the head coach had been in the final four was one of the big predictors of a team's chances of making it to the Final Four. I believe the same is true for baseball. . . Maybe not a direct analogy, but teams with more experienced managers generally perform better against pythogorean projected W-Ls. Baker has managed a team to the World Series, and he has had several successful years. I hope there is some residue of his experiences still left in this elixor.

    3.) M2, I don't see how this move guarantees the Reds will spend cash. Has there been reports of increasing payroll? I'd like to hear your thoughts on this issue. If anything, I see them going with the young guys and churning them through the meat grinder rather than increasing payroll.

    4.) Is the Dusty/bullpen mix toxic too? I recall he built some interesting bullpens in SF.

  6. #380
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Dusty Baker. Heh.

    I wish I had no words. But I do. The Reds' new manager is a complete and total Milo in the worst way. He burns pitchers. The guy has no clue how offense actually works. To call him a narcissist would be kind. Frankly, I think this move speaks volumes about how completely cluesless the current ownership and front office actually is.

    Dusty Baker. Yeah. This is a guy who couldn't survive with a soulmate in Jim Hendry at the helm with a higher payroll franchise. The move here is idiotic at best. At best. At worst, it's a franchise killer.

    The Reds ownership and management have now screwed things up because, as usual, they have no idea where they really are.

    At this point, they are teh suck.
    Amen.

  7. #381
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    What you are advocating as the upside of this move, a concerted effort to 'go for it', is exactly my primary rationale for disliking the move. In this market, with this personnel, and in this current division the recipe for success should be to follow through with the development of the youthful talent that was already paying dividends.

    Following Mac's ascent, we posted one of the better records in the division and league, and that was with heavy contributions from the young talent that should be counted upon to improve and replicate similar production (and which had already demonstrated an ability to shine under Pete). In a division where 10 games over .500 ball runs away and hides with the crown, Pete's 2 games over .500 with a previously 20 games under club, was positive traction.

    A franchise like the Reds should be looking to clubs like Cleveland for innovative and forward thinking approaches to rebuilding, and as a how to guide to competing with the larger market competitors. Instead, we went 180 degrees in the opposite direction, favoring retro-backwards thinking, and the common man appeal of a familiar name and nostalgia, to good baseball philosophy.

    The problem with this Owner and F.O. 'going for it' is precisely the fact that this is the type of signing that happens when they 'go for it'... Sign a manager who was 34 games under .500 in his last 2 NL Central seasons with a superiorly funded team, over a manager who just went 2 games over with the a lesser team in the same division. When these guys 'go for it' what do we get? When we went for it in mid-2006 Majewski was the center piece of wining now, along with Cormier, and Guardado. When we were ready to contend again going into 2007, it was the addition of Stanton, and Gonzo and Conine etc...

    The right track was staying the course with allowing the young positional players, and bullpen hands to continue to blossom (Hamilton, Phillips, EdE, Votto, Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, Burton, Cout, Salmon etc...) and to then augment them with a little veteran rotation help, and a more stalwart bullpen enforcer or two. That, and good health, and we're in contention in the volatile NL Central. Instead, where will the shakeup lead? How far will we backtrack? How many bad moves, and how much youth development impeded, will take place in favor of a veteran sack who plays Dusty's old school style of ball.

    My guess is that Pete handled the bullpen much better, cared for the arms of our key investments (Harang and Arroyo) much better, and handled youth development much better, than Baker ever will. And that the small, incremental gains we made throughout 2007 were luikely all just flushed for the splash of a PR move that will go terribly awry.
    Stormy, I don't disagree with any of that. What I'm saying is, that's not how Castellini and Krivsky think and they aren't going to start thinking that way even if it's 100% correct.

    Honestly, what were the chances this franchise was going down a path I'd have chosen? Somewhere around nil would be my guess. But if they're going this way, Baker beats the pants off of Narron, Miley and Boone.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  8. #382
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by D-Man View Post
    Three thoughts:

    1.) I don't see Bailey, Cueto, and Maloney living up to their hype at this point. Talented young pitchers like Jerome Williams and Kurt Ainsworth crapped out under Baker's watch. My hope is that the Reds cash in on the young pitchers now, trading them for key components of a championship team.

    I am far less concerned with Arroyo and Harang because of their age and proven ability to handle 200+ innings. Jason Schmidt had several healthy ace-like years in SF; no reason to believe Arroyo and Harang can't carry a staff again.

    2.) If you look at the history of final four basketball teams, whether the head coach had been in the final four was one of the big predictors of a team's chances of making it to the Final Four. I believe the same is true for baseball. . . Maybe not a direct analogy, but teams with more experienced managers generally perform better against pythogorean projected W-Ls. Baker has managed a team to the World Series, and he has had several successful years. I hope there is some residue of his experiences still left in this elixor.

    3.) M2, I don't see how this move guarantees the Reds will spend cash. Has there been reports of increasing payroll? I'd like to hear your thoughts on this issue. If anything, I see them going with the young guys and churning them through the meat grinder rather than increasing payroll.
    You cash them in and then they go on to stardom while the "cash" fails.

    Maybe it is the young players themselves that got Baker's interest. That would be something. But guys like Bailey and Bruce are considered franchise talents. Something Ainsworth and crowd never were.

  9. #383
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    There are times when I hear people rag on the Reds and I want to fight back, defend their honor. As of today, I'm joining them. I've just lost all hope that this management team was intelligent and had a good plan. Just... uggh.

    I'm embarrassed by this decision. It's like voting for a candidate only to find out later he's a KKK member and neo-nazi who kills kittens in his spare time. Now excuse me while I go cry myself to sleep.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  10. #384
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Baker beats the pants off of Narron, Miley and Boone.
    What about Mackanin?

  11. #385
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Stormy, I don't disagree with any of that. What I'm saying is, that's not how Castellini and Krivsky think and they aren't going to start thinking that way even if it's 100% correct.

    Honestly, what were the chances this franchise was going down a path I'd have chosen? Somewhere around nil would be my guess. But if they're going this way, Baker beats the pants off of Narron, Miley and Boone.


    They're running the T Formation. We want the pro set. Ain't gonna happen, it appears.

    I see both sides. M2, you and Stormy have summed it up extremely well, IMO.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  12. #386
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Here's the problem with them "going for it", M2.

    The Reds are throwing a Hail Mary and don't realize they're down 14, it's the middle of the 2nd quarter, and it's 3rd and 1 from their own 17.

    I guess I see the positive in them choosing a direction and pursuing it. But I take no positive out of them pursuing a crappy direction.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  13. #387
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by D-Man View Post
    Four thoughts/questions:

    1.) I don't see Bailey, Cueto, and Maloney living up to their hype at this point. Talented young pitchers like Jerome Williams and Kurt Ainsworth crapped out under Baker's watch. My hope is that the Reds cash in on the young pitchers now, trading them for key components of a championship team.

    I am far less concerned with Arroyo and Harang because of their age and proven ability to handle 200+ innings. Jason Schmidt had several healthy ace-like years in SF; no reason to believe Arroyo and Harang can't carry a staff again.

    2.) If you look at the history of final four basketball teams, whether the head coach had been in the final four was one of the big predictors of a team's chances of making it to the Final Four. I believe the same is true for baseball. . . Maybe not a direct analogy, but teams with more experienced managers generally perform better against pythogorean projected W-Ls. Baker has managed a team to the World Series, and he has had several successful years. I hope there is some residue of his experiences still left in this elixor.

    3.) M2, I don't see how this move guarantees the Reds will spend cash. Has there been reports of increasing payroll? I'd like to hear your thoughts on this issue. If anything, I see them going with the young guys and churning them through the meat grinder rather than increasing payroll.

    4.) Is the Dusty/bullpen mix toxic too? I recall he built some interesting bullpens in SF.
    1) It may not bode well for the long term success of those young pitchers, but Baker might be their ticket to one hit wonder status. Though don't count out one or more of them getting traded for veteran talent. Just a guess, but I'd imagine he'll prefer Cueto (who's a heady and composed pitcher by all accounts) to Bailey.

    3) Nothing guarantees more money spent, but do you think Dusty Baker came to the Reds to manage a $60M roster? I don't. As for young players, that's not Baker's M.O. Probably the last thing you want is to bring in Dusty Baker and ask him not to be himself. I'm sure he's told this organization what he thinks he needs to win and I'm equally sure they've agreed to supply it.

    4) I can't see Baker making the Reds bullpen worse. Over the past four seasons it's been the worst most of us have ever seen from this franchise.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  14. #388
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Here's the problem with them "going for it", M2.

    The Reds are throwing a Hail Mary and don't realize they're down 14, it's the middle of the 2nd quarter, and it's 3rd and 1 from their own 17.

    I guess I see the positive in them choosing a direction and pursuing it. But I take no positive out of them pursuing a crappy direction.
    Absolutely nowhere have you seen me say that I think this is going to work. I don't. Chances are it will be a spectacular and painful failure.

    But even if the show sucks, at least they've got amps turned up to 11. It beats the unplugged sets we've endured in the 21st century.

    I hear Cincinnati wants to party.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  15. #389
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    This is a guy who a few years ago was discussed as being the best manager in the game:

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1449940.html

    As Rob Neyer points out in the link above, that was hyperbole. He wasn't THAT good.

    But the hyperbole on this thread is worse. The Reds have hired their best manager since Davey Johnson. Baker has a .527 career winning percentage.

    I would have chosen someone else, but I do think the Reds will be a better than .500 team by 2009.
    How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids

  16. #390
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Absolutely nowhere have you seen me say that I think this is going to work. I don't. Chances are it will be a spectacular and painful failure.

    But even if the show sucks, at least they've got amps turned up to 11. It beats the unplugged sets we've endured in the 21st century.

    I hear Cincinnati wants to party.
    Heh, fair enough. I suppose this way either we lose and all feel vindicated saying that the team is run by a bunch of idiots or we win and... well... we'd win.

    As a Chicagoan, I don't look forward to the incoming ridicule...
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.


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