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Thread: NBA Thread

  1. #46
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    Re: NBA Thread

    when the cavs are at full strength, their bench is not sad. we'll just say that their starting guards are Pavlovic and Hughes. Leaving Gibson on the bench to provide a little scoring spark. The other backup guards are Devin Brown, Eric Snow, Damon Jones, and Shannon Brown. Devin Brown is good ballplayer who doesnt really excel at one aspect but is good at all, and versitile. For what Snow lacks in the offensive game, he is a top notch defender and almost a coach on the floor/bench. I can't really stand Jones being on the team, but he still can shoot the 3. The backup big men would be Varejao (when signed), Dwayne Jones, Cedric Simmons, Donny Marshall, Ira Newble, and Demetrious Nichols(will be in NBDL when Varejao signs). Newble is a pretty bad player, but is adequate on the defensive end and as LBJ's backup he doesnt see many minutes. Varejao could start for many teams and his energy is unmatched coming off the bench. Jones and Simmons are young and talented bigs that can provide some athletic ability off of the bench. Marshall is getting old but can still hit the occasional 3.
    The Cavs are built on defense and rebounding, and that is what the bench consists of.

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  3. #47
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    Re: NBA Thread

    James Posey, Tony Allen and Eddie House would all be the one of the best options off the bench (if they weren't starting) if they were on the Cavs. All 3 averaged more points than anyone you listed and Allen and Posey are standout defensive players. Now they have added Big Baby Davis to the mix and he is doing his best to earn more PT.

    Cav fans would love Eddie House. He is one of those guys that pretty much does not miss when left alone and on the Celtics he is being left alone a lot. Celtic fans are already comparing him to Vinnie Microwave Johnson.

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    Re: NBA Thread

    Toronto has a better bench: A. Bargnani, C. Delfino, J. Calderon, J. Dixon
    Bulls have a better bench: A. Nocioni, J. Smith, T. Sefolosha, C. Duhon, J. Noah

    Miami's bench isn't that bad... Zo, D. Cook, M. Blount, and Penny.
    New Jersey? It isn't THAT bad. Antione Wright and B. Nachbar are great bench players. Player coach Darrell Armstrong, potential filled Sean Williams are two small pieces, but could always come in for a contribution. Even their big stiff Magloire is >>>> than Scot Pollard.

    I'd also pick Lee, Balkman, and Nate over Posey, Allen, House.

    Bell, Simmons, and Villanueva isn't great, but not sad.

    I'll give you that their bench isn't THAT bad, but depth is not on their side.

  5. #49
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    Re: NBA Thread

    Only problem is, Bargnani is a starter for Toronto.

    I'm not saying Boston has a BETTER bench than these other teams. I'm saying if Boston has a sad bench then so does everyone else.

    Zo, Blount and Penny are awful. Boston had Blount and he was nicknamed "Mittens" because he can't catch a cold. Penny hasn't played in years. Miami stinks.

    How is that Wright and Nachbar are GREAT bench players and James Posey, Eddie House and Tony Allen aren't? Allen averaged 11.5 PPG last season. Posey is a solid two way contributor that can guard any position on the floor and House is a money shooter. But they don't match up with Antoine Wright and Nachbar?

    Depth isn't on their side? Name more than 3 players on the Kobe-Shaq championsihp team. Name the Bulls 9th and 10th men from when Jordan was around. The 86 Celtcis, before you were born had the Big 3, Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge, an aging Bill Walton and a bunch of scrubs that might not crack the Celtics rotation if they were playing today.

    Depth? You need 8 guys to win. Maybe 9. Nobody is winning a championship because Jamal Magloire is better than Scott Pollard. That is as irrelevant to the conversation as anything yo could come up with. The talent at the top is what matters and whether or not you can play D. Nobody is winning a title because they come at you in waves. Teams have a core of 8 guys and Boston's is as good as anyone.

    But again I am not here to argue the Celtics are some great force that we should all bow to. I just think the bench is not as bad as people make it out to be when compared to other teams. I don't think they have the best bench. But I don't think anyone has a good bench either. Especially teams like Miami, New York, New Jersey and Milwaukee. There are some decent bench options out there but I have yet to hear anyone actually credit a team without being pressed for having a good bench. Nobody has feared a teams bench since the Pistons were winning back to back titles in the late 80s.

  6. #50
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    Re: NBA Thread

    Bargnani was demoted, and is currently a bench player.

    Their center is Kendrick Perkins and Scot Pollard on the same team. That is no big man depth. Scalabrine is their first PF off the bench.

    Posey is a good player.. attitude problems, but not up there with Rasheed Wallace or Ron Artest. Tony Allen has potential to be a good player, not a starter ever, but a decent back up IF his knee holds up. Eddie House isn't even really that good. You are over-rating your own teams players.

    Also, are we not talking about benches? It is relevant that Magloire is better than Pollard, considering Pollard comes off your bench.

    Boston is good and you won't find where I've said anything different on here. Just simply said that I can see where they get criticized for their bench.

    They don't have a good back up big. Have they been playing KG at center and going with a small lineup? Scalabrine really isn't very good at all as a backup PF. They don't have a true back up point guard... Allen is more of a combo guard. I wouldn't worry about the backup PG situation too much though.

  7. #51
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    Re: NBA Thread

    Eddie House is averaging over 11 PPG. How that is not good for a bench player I am not sure.

    Why does it not matter that Magloire might be better than Pollard? Because Pollard doesn't even play. Magloire was supposedly signed to solve the Nets Center problem. Oops. The reason he is on the bench is because he is so bad that Frank can't start him which was the plan, I thought?

    Pollard was brought in to be a goon and to play in emergencies. And what I meant about him being irrelevant to the conversation was that he is burried on the bench. He is the 10th man. That is not where teams store their bench strength.

    Do you have any links to stories that might back up the James Posey attitude problem allegations?

    I too can understand why they get criticized for their bench. But you can pick apart the benches of most teams the way you just did Boston. That is my beef. I follow the NBA quite closely and no other teams are getting slammed for their bad benches when IMO there are plenty of them out there, even with the good teams. The Nets have a two man bench with no decent bigs. The Cavs have no decent bigs on their bench. Same with most teams besides New York who has David Lee. After him no post players who come off the bench are going to scare anyone.

    It is very easy rag on bench players in the NBA as there simply aren't many good ones. If you want to defend a guy you can say he can shoot, or he can play D or he can rebound but nobody has a combination of players who can do it all. Nobody. I say Eddie House can shoot and I overrate him. But Cleveland has all the bench help they need becauuse of guys like Damon Jones?

    Have you seen the Celtics play this season, TS? If not, watch Eddie House and tell me he isn't very good and can't help the Celtics. Your failing to realize how much guys improve when they play with better players. The Celtic situation was built for House.
    Last edited by MaineRed; 11-13-2007 at 12:11 PM.

  8. #52
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    Re: NBA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NJReds View Post
    Bottom line. I'm a Knicks fan who thought that Denver would have no chance beating a quality team like Boston the night after an extremely high-tempo game that they had in NY. I thought they'd get blown out, in fact. And I was right. That's it...end of story. You like to start fights in every single thread, or so it seems.

    The team I was backing is awful, and will be until the Dolans relinquish ownership. I don't assume that they'll win any game that they're in. But once again, you forgo facts in search of an internet debate.
    Back in 1978, Pete Rozalle made the NY Giants (who had warring owners at the time) hire George Young. Simms, LT, Parcells, and Banks followed and the Giants became relevant.

    I'm hoping Stern will step in and force Dolan to sell, because the NBA is better with a good Knick team (along with a good Boston team, a good Laker team, Chicago - the NBA thrives on big cities, but especially New York) and NY will never be any good as long as the putz that is Dolan owns them.

    And don't even get me started again on Isiah....
    "I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and I'm all out of bubble gum."
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  9. #53
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    Re: NBA Thread



    You said you follow the NBA so you should already know about Posey and his anger issues.

    As for House, since when is PPG directly & solely related to how good a player is? Thats like only looking at BA in baseball. You are also taking into account of just five games played. With a 19 pt game to bolster his average. In those five games he is shooting at a higher % than he ever has in his life. 10% higher for FG% and almost the same for 3PT% which is alot for the NBA. He is playing with some great players so I understand that, but I doubt he keeps it up throughout the whole season. Plus, he is a guard, but is only averaging 1.7 APG in his 7 year career. He was selected in the 2nd round... he's been waived like 2 or 3 times already. Not resigned a couple times already. He is a journey man player, and always has been, so how is he such a great player?

    Boston gets crapped on for their bench because like I said, their frontcourt consists of:

    Starter: K. Perkins (NOT a starter to begin with)
    Starter: KG (we all know how good he is, its no secret)

    Coming off the bench:

    Brian Scalabrine - just 6'9" and not with a big body either, not much of a rebounder, shot blcoker, or really anything you want in a big (plus he has red hair)

    Glen Davis - he is a rookie with really limited potential, fat, and if he ever does become something I doubt it begins this season

    Scot Pollard - you said he is an emergency but it is an emergency when you are running out Scalabrine and Davis. Doesn't play much like you said, but 6-7 minutes a game is 6-7 minutes too many.

    Leon Powe - doesn't belong on an NBA roster

    Obviously if any teams best players get injured, they will really be hurting, but even if Perkins who really shouldn't be a starter, or even Scalabrine goes down, Boston will really be hurting.

    And you keep taking away the Knicks 6th man and say that their bench sucks. Okay, minus Posey and the rest of the bench would make for a mediocre D-league team.

    The Celtics have no depth at positions they are weak at. I love Rondo to death and he has done a pretty good job, but I think you still need a decent back up in case he struggles. Eddie House? OK, he is a bench player, but I'm not so sure he would be able to platoon or start a few games here and there (minor, nagging injuries, etc.) You have Ray Allen who is getting up there in the age department, and his back up just came off knee surgery. You are fine at SF with Pierce and Posey. KG and anyone on the planet would make for an OK PF rotation. At center you have a guy who shouldn't be starting followed by guys who shouldn't be on NBA rosters.

    It's very simple and I'm not sure why you are in denial about it.

  10. #54
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    Re: NBA Thread

    Again you could break down and use the same analysis on most teams in the league. Who does Detroit have for any size on their bench? Who does New Jersey have? And plese don't say Magloire. Or Cleveland? Or Washington? Or Orlando? Or anyone really. The back-up C in Orlando is Adonial Foyle. In Charlotte it is Ryan Hollins. In Cleveland they don't even really have one. Same with Washington. Both of these teams benches DO look like D league squads and that is without taking anyone away.

    Kendrick Perkins isn't an NBA starter? And why is this? He just turned 23 the other day and he has started 101 games in his career. But he isn't a starter? Then who is?

    It obviosly is not an emergency to run out Scalabrine and Davis. They play for a team that is 5-0. Have you seen Big Baby play? The guy might be "Fat" but he could beat you in a foot race. And limited potential? The guy has serious game, dribbling, passing, shooting and rebounding. Limited? The six points and eight boards he had the other night would indicate otherwise. And lets be honest if we are going to glorify guys like Varejao who come of the bench and put up 6 and 6 then 6 and 8 is impressive.

    You keep going back to Pollard and this time have claimed he plays 6-7 minutes per game. NOT TRUE. He has played 13 minutes total this season and there have been 5 games. He plays 6.5 minutes per of games he actually gets into. And he is the 10th or 11th man. Go investigate who San Antonio and Phoenix use as their 10th man. See who the Suns back-up C is. Or the Spurs back-up PF. Detroit doesn't even have a center in their starting line-up. Where is the critism of them? Somehow it means Boston is a lesser team with the 7 foot KG playing center but Detroit can get away with playing McDyess there? A guy the same height as Brian Scalabrine. Seriously, where is the critism of Detroit and their lack of depth at the C position? And they are probably Boston's only real competition in the East. At least it looks that way now. So to win the championship they probably have to get by a team with no starting center at all and a team that has two guys named Oberto and Elson playing C. Neither guy is any better than Perkins. You can start criticizng the Spurs any time.

    I have no idea what you are talking about with Posey. I have never heard anything of these Posey anger issues you talk about. Nothing comes up on google either. And besides, Jason Kidd used to beat his wife. Does it mean the Nets have a bunch of scrubs in their starting line-up?

    And I never said House was a great player? I wanted to know how it was determined that he wasn't very good, which is what you said. Why do you have to keep turning everything around? Someone says Boston has a sad bench, I ask who doesn't and that is turned into me thinking Boston has a great bench. You say House sucks, I say he doesn't and now you are back claiming I said he was great?

    I know people are going to think Boston's bench stinks and that they don't have a back-up C or a back-up PG but very few teams do. The fact that nobody can come up with a bench that is actually good proves my point. Not that Boston has the best bench or even a good bench, just that when considering every other team, their bench is not bad. Does it have holes? Show me one that doesn't. Show me a team that doesn't have a Scott Pollard waving the towel for them? The same Scott Pollard who waved a towel as Cleveland's back-up C last season.

  11. #55
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    Re: NBA Thread

    Perkins was a starter on a Boston team last year that purposely tanked. And by him not being a starter I mean, a good or serviceable one.

    Once again you take into account of the stats of this year after five games.

    McDyess is a bruiser, Scalabrine is a wimpy white guy with red hair. Besides, Sheed guards the opposing centers, or he used to at least.

    And I guess I missed where Big Fat Baby went from overweight suspect to can't miss prospect from being drafted until now. Strange how his stock has rose from where he wasn't a top pick, or anything close to a top pick.

    Orlando isn't supposed to be the next NBA champion like the Celtics have already been given credit for. They have no big man at all, and I'm just going to assume that they will make some sort of trade, otherwise they won't go far.

    So you are saying that the Spurs don't have a better bench than the C's?

    I've repeatedly told you teams with benches that are better than the Cetlics. You continue to ignore this.

    Antoinie Wright, Bostan Nachbar, Jason Collins/Jamal Magloire/Sean Williams is better.
    Andrea Bargnani, Carlos Delfino, Jose Calderon, Juan Dixon
    Daniel Gibson, A. Pavlovic, and Anderson Varejeo (if he will ever resign)

    Jeez I'd almost rather have the Pacers bench of Troy Murphy/Jeff Foster, Shawne Williams, Marquis Daniels, and Ike Diogu. But I'm not going to go through every team that has a better bench.

    As for Posey, he has been suspended in the PLAYOFFS for repeatedly going after players, and trying to hurt them.

    Bulls v. Heat Dec. game - attacked Luol Deng
    Bulls v. Heat 06-07 season opener - hit Tyrus Thomas in the face, broke his nose
    Bulls v. Heat '06 playoffs - attacked Kirk Hinrich

    He was suspended a game this year for reckless driving/driving drunk back in April. He was inactivated for showing up out of shape, and not having a low enough body fat % by Riley.

    Definitely attitude problems.

  12. #56
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    Re: NBA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Puffy View Post
    Back in 1978, Pete Rozalle made the NY Giants (who had warring owners at the time) hire George Young. Simms, LT, Parcells, and Banks followed and the Giants became relevant.

    I'm hoping Stern will step in and force Dolan to sell, because the NBA is better with a good Knick team (along with a good Boston team, a good Laker team, Chicago - the NBA thrives on big cities, but especially New York) and NY will never be any good as long as the putz that is Dolan owns them.

    And don't even get me started again on Isiah....
    Well, Marbury was demoted as a starter, and did not show up to the shootaround in Phoenix today. They don't know if he'll show for the game.
    "The players make the manager, it's never the other way." - Sparky Anderson

  13. #57
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    Re: NBA Thread

    So you are saying that the Spurs don't have a better bench than the C's?

    I've repeatedly told you teams with benches that are better than the Cetlics. You continue to ignore this.

    Antoinie Wright, Bostan Nachbar, Jason Collins/Jamal Magloire/Sean Williams is better.
    Andrea Bargnani, Carlos Delfino, Jose Calderon, Juan Dixon
    Daniel Gibson, A. Pavlovic, and Anderson Varejeo (if he will ever resign)
    Are you seriously telling me that if Boston had these benches instead of the bench they have that you would saying they have a championship bench? I don't believe that. You are ripping Boston for having no tough guys on their bench and then you post the New Jersey and Toronto benches? The players you listed from Toronto are all PGs and then Bargnani who must be struggling if he has been taken from the starting line-up. This on a team that has Rasho Nesterovic starting for them. Yikes.

    Gibson starts for Cleveland and Pavlovic has started 3 games and he just signed. So the only guy you listed who is actually a bench player is the guy who is hanging out in Brazil at the moment. Now that is a bad bench.

    Not sure what the love affair is abouot with Jersey. Magloire is so bad he hardly plays. Collins has set futility records. This team doesn't have a decent big on the team, let alone the second unit.

    I've asked you to come up with some good benches and you keep posting garbage. These aren't the better benches in baskeball. They are your typical run of the mill benches, the same thing Boston has.

    I do think the Spurs have a better bench and that shouldn't be surprsing because I have never come even close to implying or saying that they don't. All I've said is that Boston doesn't have the worst nor ist their's any different than your average teams second unit. By listing the players you keep listing you are proving it.

    McDyess is a bruiser, Scalabrine is a wimpy white guy with red hair. Besides, Sheed guards the opposing centers, or he used to at least.
    This would be absolutely 100 fine and I see nothing wrong with it. Except earlier it seemed to be a problem that the taller, just as good, probably better defensive player in KG was playing center. I guess I just don't understand how this is a problem for Boton but not Detroit.

    And I guess I missed where Big Fat Baby went from overweight suspect to can't miss prospect from being drafted until now. Strange how his stock has rose from where he wasn't a top pick, or anything close to a top pick.
    Right, because nobody ever slips through the cracks unless you are in on it. Gilbert Arenas, Carlos Boozer, Mo Wiliams, Anderson Varejao, Monta Ellis, Luke Walton, Jason Kapono, Mehmet Okur and Bobby Simmons have gone in the second round this decade.

    Again you act like I said Big Baby was the lock for the HOF when I was simply saying he has the talent and is starting to show it, to be a decent option off the bench. Especially playing with 3 perennial all stars. As you can see from the list above, second rounders can and do succeed.

    Big Baby is "fat". He is a huge guy. But he also runs like a deer. Have you ever seen him play? He is a great ballhandler for someone his size and his passing is off the charts. No look passes are pretty frequent in his repetoire. I honestly can't imagine that you have seen much of him to keep calling him "fat" since it really doesn't mean a whole lot or to call him "limited" which is insane.
    As for Posey, he has been suspended in the PLAYOFFS for repeatedly going after players, and trying to hurt them.
    And this makes him a bad bench option because .......

    Sounds like the opposite of the wimpy Brian Scalabrine. If you want to believe that there is ONE team out there that would not love to have James Posey coming off their bench, I totally disagree. Posey is one of the better two way players (not just scorers) who doesn't start in the NBA. There is no indication of any attitude or anger management problem. He was/is his teams enforcerer and there has been plenty of bad blood between the Bulls and Heat. Those example are like saying Larry Bird had an attitude problem because he once punched Bill Laimbeer.

    BTW, Eddie House leads all NBA bench players in +/- and no stat is a better indicator of a players value to his team. When House enters games, the lead grows. When Brian Scalabrine enters the game, the lead grows. He is in the top 50 of the entire league in +/-.

    If the Celtics bench was as bad as you and the media want to make it out to be, these numbers would go in the other direction.

    Kevin Garnett and Eddie House are the 8th best combo in the +/- category for the entire NBA. Yeah that Eddie House, he can't play.
    Last edited by MaineRed; 11-13-2007 at 06:40 PM.

  14. #58
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    Re: NBA Thread

    I've seen 4 of the Celtics games so far, and Big Baby has really impressed me with his shooting ability, quickness (YES, quickness!), passing ability, and athleticism.

    He has lost a considerable amount of weight since he left LSU...

    I think he'll eventually become their first big man option off the bench.
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    Re: NBA Thread

    *sigh* all this over a team I could care less about

    You are trying your best to make me HATE the celtics

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    Re: NBA Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TeamSelig View Post
    *sigh* all this over a team I could care less about

    You are trying your best to make me HATE the celtics
    First of all, I could care less if you hate the Celtics. Its not like you were a fan of the team coming into this conversation. You don't like them? Well at least it helps explain some of the comments you have made. If you think the Celtics, their fanbase or me is going to lose any sleep over someone who has watched them play about twice in the last couple of years developing hatred for them you are about as wrong as you have been in this thread. You hate them because they are good. Which is fine. Just don't tell me they have no center and are forced to play a PF in KG there and then tell me Detroit doesn't need a C because they have Rasheed. You and everyone else (the media) are looking for things to criticize. You have proved it with a number of things you have brought up.

    You bring up injuries. Well what happens if Tim Duncan gets hurt? You telling me the Spurs have the depth to overcome that and continue sailing right along? No team in the league can afford to lose their top players. It isn't just Boston. What happens if Lebron goes down? What happens if Dwight Howard goes down? Those teams are done. Finished. But nobody ever says that about them. Just Boston for whatever reason. I'm guessing that reason is because people just want to be different and try to pinpoint some issue that will slow the team down. Before the season I heard it all, no PG, no C, no bench, 3 man team, no coach, no depth, on and on and on.

    Everyone is gaga over a team with Oberto and Elson at C but I have to hear that Kendrick Perkins doesn't belong in the NBA or as a starter or whatever. I guess the Celtics should sign Bill Walton. If Perkins isn't supposed to be the Celtics C and if Scott Pollard stinks so bad, who are the Celtics supposed to play at that position? When you imply that guys "don't belong in the league" that means you must have some names of guys who aren't in the league who you think should be. I can all but guarantee you have no one in mind who should be taking up these roster spots that belong to undeserving players.

    Just awful funny that they are the only team that has yet to lose a game with all these problems. What the heck is going on in all the cities with the perfect NBA teams? What are those teams records? Must just be a fluke that Boston is 6-0.

    I can't wait until they do lose because I have a feeling this thread will get a lot more active. A Celtics loss will prove what is wrong with them while other teams get excused for having to play on the second night of a back to back or some injury problem. Been listening to that before they even lose a game. I could care less about people not liking them. Making things up and digging under rocks to find issues when you don't do that for any other team in the league is my beef.
    Last edited by MaineRed; 11-14-2007 at 12:07 PM.


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