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Thread: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

  1. #31
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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    Trading Hamilton now will only net pennies on the dollar.

    He has to still be viewed as a major risk to every team. For the same reason that people on here don't mind to see him traded, the GMs out there would be leary to deal for him.

    He hasn't shown he can stay healthy and still needs to prove he has overcome his demons. If I were a GM, the mere act of the Reds shopping Hamilton would scare me away.

    He needs to stay healthy and clean for 2-3 years before his trade value approaches his talent.

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  3. #32
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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    Quote Originally Posted by puca View Post
    Trading Hamilton now will only net pennies on the dollar.

    He has to still be viewed as a major risk to every team. For the same reason that people on here don't mind to see him traded, the GMs out there would be leary to deal for him.

    He hasn't shown he can stay healthy and still needs to prove he has overcome his demons. If I were a GM, the mere act of the Reds shopping Hamilton would scare me away.

    He needs to stay healthy and clean for 2-3 years before his trade value approaches his talent.
    I imagine this is right. Maybe a couple of GMs would roll the dice on him, but I doubt Hamilton is a universally sought-after commodity.

  4. #33
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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    BTW, Pettitte declining his option seems to be just a formality. His agent has said he'll either pitch for the Yankees or retire, but he wants to take more time to decide.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

  5. #34
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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    Quote Originally Posted by Topcat View Post
    This whole trading of Hamilton talk to me is bloody absurd. Do people not realize exactly how monumental a feat this kid did this previous year? He had never played above High A ball then disappeared for the better part of 4 years and came back and was a serious candidate for rookie of the year in the first half of this year.

    He has a controllable salary and an upside thru the damn roof!
    If we need to trade talent to get pitching I am sorry but this kid is not who I look to let go. I truly believe his loyalty and heart belongs to the Reds and you just do not give that away.
    exactly my thoughts and I have been trying to convey that for the last couple of months. I just don't get it. He is nearly the last guy that I would trade.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

  6. #35
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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Well, stuff wise, both are light years ahead of Marshall, and 2 years younger than him as well. As for walks being fixable, yeah, they are to a point, but are the strikeouts? For the record though, Bronson is sub 3 in walks and over 6.60 in strikeouts. Just becuase someone is 'unproven' doesn't mean you just trade them for fringe average guys.....
    The K's might go up. We don't know. He's not really been in the league long enough and he's still likely honing his skills. I think he's a better pitcher than you're giving him credit for, but we can agree to disagree.

  7. #36
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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    The K's might go up. We don't know. He's not really been in the league long enough and he's still likely honing his skills. I think he's a better pitcher than you're giving him credit for, but we can agree to disagree.
    Pitchers who barely crack 90 every 10 pitches don't see their strikeout rates go up all too often..... his average fastball was 87.8 MPH this past season.

  8. #37
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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Pitchers who barely crack 90 every 10 pitches don't see their strikeout rates go up all too often..... his average fastball was 87.8 MPH this past season.
    And he also has very good control and is very good with changing speeds. The guy also has a great sinker and 2 plus pitches with his curve and change and supposedly has been working on a slider. His curve is nasty.

    He's got the stuff to be very effective, he just hasn't had the opportunity to put it altogether.
    Last edited by fearofpopvol1; 11-06-2007 at 02:51 PM.

  9. #38
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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    And he also has very good control and is very good with changing speeds. The guy also has a great sinker and 2 plus pitchers with his curve and change and supposedly has been working on a slider. His curve is nasty.

    He's got the stuff to be very effective, he just hasn't had the opportunity to put it altogether.
    Could be... but his control isn't great. He walked over 3 per 9 last year. It isn't horrible, but its not great by any stretch.

  10. #39
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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Could be... but his control isn't great. He walked over 3 per 9 last year. It isn't horrible, but its not great by any stretch.
    I should say his control was great in the minors. But again, he hasn't really had a fair shot at adjusting at the major league level.

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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    I should say his control was great in the minors. But again, he hasn't really had a fair shot at adjusting at the major league level.
    You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You cannot sit here and praise Marshall for his minor league achievements even though "he hasn't really had a fair shot at adjusting to the major league level" while devaluing Bailey and Cueto because they are unproven at the major league level.

    Any way you slice it, Bailey and Cueto both win over Marshall in every category, with the exception that Marshall is a southpaw and he has had slightly more major league experience (despite being two years older). However, you even claim that he has hardly adjusted to the major league level, thus suggesting that the Reds should trade either one of these guys (or both) for Marshall is pretty assanine.

    I'll reiterate- I wouldn't mind seeing the Reds pursue Marshall, but your propsals are preposterous. Josh Hamilton for Rich Hill- now there's a trade I would consider.
    Last edited by Benihana; 11-06-2007 at 03:00 PM.
    Go BLUE!!!

  12. #41
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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You cannot sit here and praise Marshall for his minor league achievements even though "he hasn't really had a fair shot at adjusting to the major league level" while devaluing Bailey and Cueto because they are unproven at the major league level.

    Any way you slice it, Bailey and Cueto both win over Marshall in every category, with the exception that Marshall is a southpaw and he has had slightly more major league experience (despite being two years older). However, you even claim that he has hardly adjusted to the major league level, thus suggesting that the Reds should trade either one of these guys (or both) for Marshall is pretty assanine.

    I'll reiterate- I wouldn't mind seeing the Reds pursue Marshall, but your propsals are preposterous. Josh Hamilton for Rich Hill- now there's a trade I would consider.
    No no no. You're taking things way out of context here. Take the control issue out of the equation then for all I care. I took ONE area from the minors and brought that up in my argument. Bailey dominated everything in the minors and then got to the majors and pretty much stunk.

    What I said previously still stands. Marshall has proven more at the major league level than Bailey or Cueto has. It's indisputable. Look at the numbers. Does that mean Marshall is the better pitcher and will have more success? No, it doesn't. It does mean he has proven more at the major league level. I personally like a commodity that has proven something over a decent period of time over someone that's just a prospect, but that's just me.

    Further, I never said Marshall has hardly adjusted at the major league level, I said he needs to adjust more. All players need to adjust more. I stand by what I said, Marshall has looked better in the majors than Bailey has by a landslide. It's not even close right now. Also, I never suggested the Reds trade both Bailey/Cueto for Marshall. I posed the question. You were inferring that I would do that, but in fact I would not. That's a bit too much to trade.

    Lastly, Hamilton for Rich Hill is laughable. I would expect such a preposterous proposal to somehow make it in to the hands of the media for further laughter.

  13. #42
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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    No no no. You're taking things way out of context here. Take the control issue out of the equation then for all I care. I took ONE area from the minors and brought that up in my argument. Bailey dominated everything in the minors and then got to the majors and pretty much stunk.
    No, he stunk when he was hurt. Take out those 3 starts he made with the groin injury and he posted a sub 4.00 ERA, went 4-0 and had a lot fewer hits than innings pitched. The control wasn't all there, but I would take what Bailey did as a healthy 21 year old over what Marshall did last year.

    What I said previously still stands. Marshall has proven more at the major league level than Bailey or Cueto has. It's indisputable. Look at the numbers. Does that mean Marshall is the better pitcher and will have more success? No, it doesn't. It does mean he has proven more at the major league level. I personally like a commodity that has proven something over a decent period of time over someone that's just a prospect, but that's just me.
    Sean Marshall is a commodity who has proven something? I don't even know where to go with that one.

    Further, I never said Marshall has hardly adjusted at the major league level, I said he needs to adjust more. All players need to adjust more. I stand by what I said, Marshall has looked better in the majors than Bailey has by a landslide. It's not even close right now.
    I disagree on every level. Bailey has shown a better fastball and a better curveball. He has shown that he doesn't allow hits or home runs (especially when not throwing with a hurt groin where he allowed 1 HR his 35 healthy innings and just 28 hits). The only thing Marshall has shown is a better walk rate to this point. Marshall has shown that he gets hit alot, doesn't miss bats (although I will say Bailey hasn't shown an ability to do that at the MLB level yet either, but he has much more potentail to do it given his pitch arsenal) and is never going to throw a fastball by anyone.

  14. #43
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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    No no no. You're taking things way out of context here. Take the control issue out of the equation then for all I care. I took ONE area from the minors and brought that up in my argument. Bailey dominated everything in the minors and then got to the majors and pretty much stunk.

    What I said previously still stands. Marshall has proven more at the major league level than Bailey or Cueto has. It's indisputable. Look at the numbers. Does that mean Marshall is the better pitcher and will have more success? No, it doesn't. It does mean he has proven more at the major league level. I personally like a commodity that has proven something over a decent period of time over someone that's just a prospect, but that's just me.

    Further, I never said Marshall has hardly adjusted at the major league level, I said he needs to adjust more. All players need to adjust more. I stand by what I said, Marshall has looked better in the majors than Bailey has by a landslide. It's not even close right now. Also, I never suggested the Reds trade both Bailey/Cueto for Marshall. I posed the question. You were inferring that I would do that, but in fact I would not. That's a bit too much to trade.

    Lastly, Hamilton for Rich Hill is laughable. I would expect such a preposterous proposal to somehow make it in to the hands of the media for further laughter.
    Erroneous on all accounts!

    Of course Marshall has "accomplished more" at the major league level than Bailey or Cueto- he is a full 4 years older.

    What exactly has Marshall "accomplished" in those 4 years? Well, he is a 25 year old pitcher with a 4.83 career ERA. Where was he at Bailey's age? He was pitching at Virginia Commonwealth University, and then in A ball. Homer was earning wins at the major league level. To me, Marshall is a left handed Matt Belisle with a little more upside. An intriguing guy to target if you are the Reds, but not someone for whom you should ever trade a premier, major league ready, pitching prospect. Should the Yankees trade Phil Hughes for Matt Belisle? Belisle, after all, is more proven at the major league level.

    Finally, Hamilton for Hill is hardly laughable, preposterous, or whatever you want to call it. I live in Chicago, listen to and read the Chicago media, and work with several knowledgeable Cubs fans. While they would be hesitant to deal Hill, they acknowledge it would be, at worst, an offer to consider.
    Go BLUE!!!

  15. #44
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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, he stunk when he was hurt. Take out those 3 starts he made with the groin injury and he posted a sub 4.00 ERA, went 4-0 and had a lot fewer hits than innings pitched. The control wasn't all there, but I would take what Bailey did as a healthy 21 year old over what Marshall did last year.
    This is just an excuse for Bailey's performance. I thought he improved towards the end as well, but he is still very much unproven at the major league level.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Sean Marshall is a commodity who has proven something? I don't even know where to go with that one.
    He has proven more than Bailey has at the major league level, yes. It's pretty simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I disagree on every level. Bailey has shown a better fastball and a better curveball. He has shown that he doesn't allow hits or home runs (especially when not throwing with a hurt groin where he allowed 1 HR his 35 healthy innings and just 28 hits). The only thing Marshall has shown is a better walk rate to this point. Marshall has shown that he gets hit alot, doesn't miss bats (although I will say Bailey hasn't shown an ability to do that at the MLB level yet either, but he has much more potentail to do it given his pitch arsenal) and is never going to throw a fastball by anyone.
    Bailey has a better fastball, but a better curveball? Absolutely not. Marshall's offspeed pitches are light years better than Bailey's, it's not even close. And Bailey's pitch arsenal? That's a huge overstatement as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Erroneous on all accounts!

    Of course Marshall has "accomplished more" at the major league level than Bailey or Cueto- he is a full 4 years older.

    What exactly has Marshall "accomplished" in those 4 years? Well, he is a 25 year old pitcher with a 4.83 career ERA. Where was he at Bailey's age? He was pitching at Virginia Commonwealth University, and then in A ball. Homer was earning wins at the major league level. To me, Marshall is a left handed Matt Belisle with a little more upside. An intriguing guy to target if you are the Reds, but not someone for whom you should ever trade a premier, major league ready, pitching prospect. Should the Yankees trade Phil Hughes for Matt Belisle? Belisle, after all, is more proven at the major league level.

    Finally, Hamilton for Hill is hardly laughable, preposterous, or whatever you want to call it. I live in Chicago, listen to and read the Chicago media, and work with several knowledgeable Cubs fans. While they would be hesitant to deal Hill, they acknowledge it would be, at worst, an offer to consider.
    Marshall is still relatively young for all intents and purposes. He's not younger than Bailey, I'm quite aware of that. That wasn't my argument. My argument was that he has proven more at the major league level than Bailey and he has and I like what I've seen more from Marshall than I have of Bailey. Also, there is a big difference between Phil Hughes and Homer Bailey. Phil Hughes looked quite a bit better in his first stint in the majors than Bailey did so I don't really value the comparison.

    Re: Hamilyon, again, I disagree. Post that trade proposal on a reputable Cubs message board and see what the response is. I would fully expect Hendry or whoever in the FO to laugh at the Hamilton for Marshall proposal.

  16. #45
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    Re: MLBTradeRumors Top 50 Free Agents

    I'm done with this argument, it is absurd.
    Go BLUE!!!


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