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Thread: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

  1. #31
    Member top6's Avatar
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    As much as I'm sure this pains most of us, it's just pointless to hope the Reds do things like the As. It's never going to happen. This is a team that just spent huge amounts of money on a closer and a manager, and that manager thinks baserunners clog the bases. They're sort of like the Anti-As; maybe we should start calling them the Cincinnati Zs?

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  3. #32
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    Quote Originally Posted by top6 View Post
    As much as I'm sure this pains most of us, it's just pointless to hope the Reds do things like the As. It's never going to happen. This is a team that just spent huge amounts of money on a closer and a manager, and that manager thinks baserunners clog the bases. They're sort of like the Anti-As; maybe we should start calling them the Cincinnati Zs?
    Last I checked the A's havn't won a world series since the 80's. They have been able to field competitive teams but have not been very successful in the post season. They also have had a very very difficult time developing good young hitting. Chavez is a good player as is Swisher but outside of them their offense is very very suspect.

    As much as the A's are a model for small market baseball I look to teams like the Tigers and Rockies as better models for success. In order to be successful as a baseball team you need a good ballance of offense, pitching, and defense. The Rockies run this offseason was fueled by two home grown position players, decent pitching, good defense, and live arms coming out of the pen.

    The A's have had success at the closer position but until Graves went bust the reds have had success both at the closer position as well as had solid bull pens.

  4. #33
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Two of those guys are lefties, and Soto wasn't drafted.
    .
    Mario was signed as a catcher. (or at least showed up for the audition as a catcher, I forget the exact timeline).
    Someone in the Reds' organization noticed his strong arm and thought he should try
    his hand at pitching.

    Likewise, Scott Sullivan walked on to his college team as a reserve OF. He was fooling
    around in practice throwing sidearm, and his coach noticed the great movement he had and
    thought he should try pitching as well.

    I'm not advocating this as the primary method to add pitching talent, I just thought
    they were interesting stories.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  5. #34
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    You tel me, as soon as Bowden was here for awhile the search for offense was more prevalent then any defensive/pitching philosphy. The men spent half his career as Reds GM looking for HR's and a fast CF.
    I think it was a bit of both. Bowden loved his 5-tool outfielders, but the system really started to sputter under the Marge regime in the late-80's. Dibble and Charlton were among the last of the big horses to come out of the Reds' stable.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

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    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Last I checked the A's havn't won a world series since the 80's.
    Neither have the Tigers. And the Rockies have never won one.

    I'll take the team that can build a perennial contender on the cheap.
    Last edited by Johnny Footstool; 11-27-2007 at 02:30 PM.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  7. #36
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    I think it was a bit of both. Bowden loved his 5-tool outfielders, but the system really started to sputter under the Marge regime in the late-80's. Dibble and Charlton were among the last of the big horses to come out of the Reds' stable.
    Bowden may forever be in search of a 21 year old KGJ, but the man had a knack for building a cheap bullpen. Couldn't find starters after '99, but a pen, that he could do. He never seems to care where they come from either. Pedigree for a RP isn't as important to him 1st rd, 21st rd, NDFA whatever.

    I like the Cordero signing because in this case I do not care about the money. It doesn't seem as if Cast is afraid to spend, where with Lindner it was always about the money. Plain and simple: Cordero makes the pen better. No one on either side of this discussion can dispute that.

    My question is with the success the Yankees have had this year with pitchers from the independent leagues, why aren't the Reds more active in that arena?
    Suck it up cupcake.

  8. #37
    Red's fan mbgrayson's Avatar
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Last I checked the A's havn't won a world series since the 80's. They have been able to field competitive teams but have not been very successful in the post season.
    Agreed that no A's World Championship since 1989. But in the 12 years I quoted above, here is their win totals, and the Reds totals:

    Code:
    Wins	A's	Reds
    1996	78	81
    1997	65	76
    1998	74	77
    1999	87	96
    2000	91	85
    2001	102	66
    2002	103	78
    2003	96	69
    2004	91	76
    2005	88	73
    2006	93	80
    2007	76	72
    		
    Total 	1044	929
    The A's have won 115 games more over the 12 years than the Reds; almost 10 more wins per year, with a comparable (or lower) payroll, and a mediocre fan base.
    Last edited by mbgrayson; 11-27-2007 at 03:09 PM.
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    Quote Originally Posted by top6 View Post
    As much as I'm sure this pains most of us, it's just pointless to hope the Reds do things like the As. It's never going to happen. This is a team that just spent huge amounts of money on a closer and a manager, and that manager thinks baserunners clog the bases. They're sort of like the Anti-As; maybe we should start calling them the Cincinnati Zs?
    I really just want the Reds to use a model that provides a consistent winner. The methodology really doesn't matter to me.

  10. #39
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    I'll take the team that can build a perennial contender on the cheap.
    Sure, but I'm not convinced the As are going to sustain their competitiveness at this point. They may very well tear down this winter (noting the offensive sinkhole that has claimed Chavez, Crosby and Kotsay), and once you do that there's no guarantee you'll climb back quickly. Beane made nice choices of young players in the Mulder trade, but he fanned in the Hudson trade. I don't think you can assume he'll strike gold in every tear-down trade he makes, if he goes that route.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  11. #40
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    I know the A's have been successful. They seem to make the right deals at the right times. But with the exception of the Giambi not sliding Jeter play the A's have really been a non factor in the the post season. Beane's method has put together a pretty good pitching staff but he has been void of offense since Tejada left town. I think people become so enamored with Beane's methods that they forget to see that other smaller market teams have now only succeeded in the playoffs but won world series during the same timeframe.

  12. #41
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Sure, but I'm not convinced the As are going to sustain their competitiveness at this point. They may very well tear down this winter (noting the offensive sinkhole that has claimed Chavez, Crosby and Kotsay), and once you do that there's no guarantee you'll climb back quickly. Beane made nice choices of young players in the Mulder trade, but he fanned in the Hudson trade. I don't think you can assume he'll strike gold in every tear-down trade he makes, if he goes that route.
    I think it can be assumed that he'll display the same talent and ability for his job as he has in the past which suggests a tear down in Oakland isn't a scary proposition.

    People have focused on the As lack of offense as a chink in Beane's armor. That kind of misses the point I think because he's managed to field successful teams by being efficient on the RA side of the equation. I'm surprised thought that no one has brought up that Oakland's farm system is pretty lousy right now.
    Last edited by jojo; 11-27-2007 at 03:41 PM.
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  13. #42
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    I think it's worth noting that the baseball landscape has generally gotten a lot smarter over the past 5 or 6 years. It might not be quite as easy for him to pull off what he's done in the past. Certainly, he's still a smart guy, but a number of other smart guys are now in the game who weren't previously.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  14. #43
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    I think it can be assumed that he'll display the same talent and ability for his job as he has in the past which suggests a tear down in Oakland isn't a scary proposition.
    In that the only "tear down" Beane has ever engaged in involved the trades of Mulder and Hudson in the same offseason, and in that he failed miserably in one of those trades, I'd say evidence points to our not knowing how things will work out for him.

    I'm surprised thought that no one has brought up that Oakland's farm system is pretty lousy right now.
    I've said this for a couple years now, but I recall being rebuked over the likes of "quality" prospects -- and Moneyball minor characters -- such as Mark Kiger and Brent Colamarino. Yeah, their system is weak now, following a succession of what appear to be unimpressive drafts.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  15. #44
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    Let's see: method appears to be fill with other's junk hoping to strike lightning, eventually draft a reliever from college and promote him rapidly. If this is the A's system I fail to see how that differs from what the Reds have been doing the past few years. The Wagner draft and promotion can be seen as a model for the Street draft. The bullpen has been a sore subject here the past couple of years (in case no one has noticed) but the method isn't much different from the A's but the talent evaluation/ luck/ health/ reliever flukes have been less successful.

  16. #45
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: A smarter way to fill the closer position: The A's

    One thing to remember about the A's is that Billy Beane's a genius. The A's model doesn't work as well when J.P. Ricciardi tries to employ it or when Paul DePodesta has to fight an in-house war to so much as ties his shoes.

    I've got huge respect for Beane and what he's done in Oakland. I think there's a lot other teams can learn from him (and not spending money on a closer isn't something I'd rank anywhere near the top of that list). Yet this notion that every other smaller market franchise has to mimic his every move strikes me as highly counterproductive. Not only would it cause teams to adopt highly predictable patterns (and Beane's unpredictability is one of his chief assets), it would cause a dozen or so teams to constantly fish in the same waters, ignoring the opportunities to cast their line into more promising pools.

    Plus, the Reds aren't populated with folks who are going to employ the Oakland model. That's not their bent nor their background. Krivsky, Baker, et al will be taking a different route and the way to judge their progress shouldn't be to note that it's not the way the A's did it. Ultimately it's a meaningless comparison. We already knew they weren't going to emulate the A's. The real question is can the moves they're making net them the team they claim to want?
    Last edited by M2; 11-27-2007 at 04:59 PM.
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