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View Poll Results: Who is the Reds #10 Prospect?

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  • Chris Dickerson

    3 3.30%
  • Danny Dorn

    14 15.38%
  • Carlos Fisher

    8 8.79%
  • Juan Francisco

    1 1.10%
  • Carlos Guevara

    2 2.20%
  • Sam Lecure

    1 1.10%
  • Kyle Lotzkar

    10 10.99%
  • Devin Mesoraco

    27 29.67%
  • Tyler Pelland

    6 6.59%
  • Adam Rosales

    5 5.49%
  • Neftali Soto

    0 0%
  • Daryl Thompson

    3 3.30%
  • Justin Turner

    1 1.10%
  • Chris Valaika

    0 0%
  • Pedro Viola

    3 3.30%
  • Brandon Waring

    4 4.40%
  • Sean Watson

    3 3.30%
  • Other (specify in thread)

    0 0%
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Thread: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

  1. #31
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    I think he has the tools, it's just that he's about as raw as it gets. As a ceiling, I could see a Russell Martin calibre player, as he fits the similar mold since he is a very good athlete, it's just that his chances of being that good are almost non-existant.

    I could also see him being a LaRue type of player. JUst replace some HBP with walks.

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  3. #32
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Again, you are trying to compare him to other positions. Why should he have to be compared against other positions when he doesn't play them? Should he have to be as toolsy as Chris Dickerson to be considered toolsy? Surely not. Just like in evluating how good a player someone is, a .300/.360/.460 shortstop is a lot stronger than a .300/.360/.460 corner outfielder..... Fact is, tools wise, he is well ahead of most other catchers, and that is how he should be evaluated.
    Do Joe Mauer and Russ Martin play other positions? No, they don't. Yet they still have offensive tools, not just for catchers, they have legit tools.

    You keep falling for your own bait and switch. There is a rather sizable gap between being a toolsy ballplayer and being catcher who doesn't totally lack tools. Know the difference. It's fine that Mesoraco is the latter type. I've got zero problem with that. Yet people keep pretending he's the former type when he's not. He's not a 60 hitter with 65 speed and power. I'd actually be interested in seeing what some scouts have him rated at on those levels, but you can tell by the "for a catcher" caveats on the reports that those tools are being talked about as relative strengths, not absolute strengths ... and relative strengths don't merit the same sort of valuation as absolute ones.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  4. #33
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    My next three are Adam Rosales, Danny Dorn and Carlos Fisher. I have all three in the top 10 in place of Stubbs, Mesoraco and Wood. I think Mesoraco and Stubbs are guys who need to prove that they aren't mistakes. I like Wood a little but I was suspicious of his slight build and his ability to maintain in higher levels after 2006. Last season did nothing to remove those concerns. I would need to see 150 effective innings split between A+ and AA in 2008 to call him a top 10 prospect. If so, I'd move him up to number 6 on this list behind Frazier. As is, I have him at 14 behind Marcus McBeth. I have Stubbs at 18 and Mesoraco at 31. I obviously give a lot more weight to success at AA and above than I do draft position. Draft position coupled with immediate success (Frazier who I have at #5) means a lot more than draft position alone IMO. I guess since these rookie leagues are filled with guys drafted anywhere throughout the draft, I expect #1 picks to succeed at the lowest levels and if they don't it's a major red flag.

    I think a number of people on here are so used to the Reds having such a barren system that they place too much weight on draft position alone. In prior years that was enough to get a prospect in the top 5 or 10 because everyone else was always awful. I'm thankful that the system has some talent to make draft position alone a minor criteria without some successful performance to back it up. That isn't to say that draft position doesn't have any weight. The fact that a catcher who hits .219/.296/.270 in the lowest level is on the list at all while a guy like Ryan Hanigan who had an .847 OPS at AA and spent some time on the major league roster is not ranked at all is a tip of the hat to draft pedigree.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  5. #34
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    Let's say he's got the ceiling of a being a plus defending catcher who can put up .280/.330/.430.

    Is that ceiling fair?
    How does that compare to the ceiling of the other guys in our top 10?
    What are the odds he reaches that ceiling?
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  6. #35
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Do Joe Mauer and Russ Martin play other positions? No, they don't. Yet they still have offensive tools, not just for catchers, they have legit tools.

    You keep falling for your own bait and switch. There is a rather sizable gap between being a toolsy ballplayer and being catcher who doesn't totally lack tools. Know the difference. It's fine that
    Mesoraco is the latter type. I've got zero problem with that. Yet people keep pretending he's the former type when he's not. He's not a 60 hitter with 65 speed and power. I'd actually be interested in seeing what some scouts have him rated at on those levels, but you can tell by the "for a catcher" caveats on the reports that those tools are being talked about as relative strengths, not absolute strengths ... and relative strengths don't merit the same sort of valuation as absolute ones.
    Well here is the milb.com scouting report for Mesoraco. The only thing I can note where they talk about his tools 'as a catcher' is his running ability.

    Code:
    Focus Area
    	
    Comments
    Hitting Ability:	Mesoraco has a ton of hitting ability, using a little leg kick in his approach, and doesn't swing at bad pitches.
    
    Power:	Mesoraco has plus power. Right now, it's more pull power, but eventually he'll develop power to all fields.
    
    Running Speed:	He's a fringy-average runner, which is pretty good for a catcher.
    
    Arm Strength:	He has a plus arm and isn't afraid to use it in pick-off attempts.
    
    Arm Accuracy:	His throws are always right on the money.
    
    Fielding:	Mesoraco has plus hands behind the plate.
    
    Range:	A terrific athlete, Mesoraco is outstanding at blocking balls in the dirt.
    
    Baseball Instincts:	Off the charts. He's got great makeup, he's very aggressive and he's a natural leader behind the plate.
    
    Physical Description:	Mesoraco is a strong backstop with a body type that might remind some of a Joe Girardi or Ivan Rodriguez.
    
    Medical Update: Mesoraco missed much of 2006 following Tommy John surgery, but now is completely healthy and clearly is having no problems with his throwing.
    
    Strengths:	He's a complete package. He can hit with power and he can play defense with a strong arm and soft hands.
    
    Weaknesses:	He tends to get out on his front foot on his swing from time to time.
    
    Summary:	Mesoraco has answered any questions about his arm following Tommy John surgery a year ago and is on the rise among catching prospects. He's a complete catching package, with hitting ability, power, good hands, a plus arm and outstanding leadership ability.
    I can't post what Baseball America has to say in their scouting report on him, but nowhere did they have any caveats about 'good for a catcher'.

  7. #36
    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    woo hoo carlos fisher!
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  8. #37
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Let's say he's got the ceiling of a being a plus defending catcher who can put up .280/.330/.430.

    Is that ceiling fair?
    How does that compare to the ceiling of the other guys in our top 10?
    What are the odds he reaches that ceiling?
    I think those numbers look good with the exception of the OBP and slugging. He has shown a solid ability of walking. I would probably bump both up another 20-30 points and go with .280/.355/.455 with potential for more slugging for 2-3 years in his prime. That is decently close to what Joe Mauer put up this year (.292/.382/.426). Do I think he is in the Joe Mauer class? No, Joe Mauer is in a different class of player (the guy was also the Gatorade High School Football Player of the Year as a senior in HS). The odds of him reaching that ceiling are unknown right now.

  9. #38
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I think those numbers look good with the exception of the OBP and slugging. He has shown a solid ability of walking. I would probably bump both up another 20-30 points and go with .280/.355/.455 with potential for more slugging for 2-3 years in his prime.
    That strikes me as a fair ceiling. Obviously we don't know the odds, but generally they aren't good. That's why it's your ceiling, it's the maximum you're likely to attain. I'd be perfectly happy with a .260/.335/.435. In fact, I'd probably like Mesoraco better than most under those circumstances.

    I just sort of doubt most people are dreaming on those sorts of numbers.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  10. #39
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    Devin Mesoraco was considered a better prospect than Todd Frazier in June, and IMO, still should be. I'll vote for him a third time.
    FIRE DUSTY BAKER

    ADOPT THIS SIGNATURE IN SOLIDARITY!!!

  11. #40
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    Again I vote Viola.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  12. #41
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    I went with Mesoraco this time. I have went Dorn the last 2 but I did not look at how bad he struggled against lefties this year.

  13. #42
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    I decided to go with Viola in a slight edge over Carlos Fisher.

  14. #43
    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    I'm kinda suprised by the inconsistency of the voting... Fisher had no votes last go round and now Thompson has no votes...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  15. #44
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    I'm kinda suprised by the inconsistency of the voting... Fisher had no votes last go round and now Thompson has no votes...
    You have to look at where the votes are coming from and going to. Who voted for Thompson last time, and who did they vote for this time?

  16. #45
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    Re: Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #10

    Francisco with 25 homers, 90 RBIs, a gun for an arm, only 20, BA's 8th selection in the Reds top ten, has no votes this round. I nominate him for prospect 11.


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