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Thread: Reds at Winter Meetings

  1. #46
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    Hopper is a 4th OF. A very good one. The only problem is Baker remembering he's 4th. In that regard I hope Dusty is better than Narron or even Mac. Just because a guy is a good fill in doesn;t mean he should be the starter (also see Keppinger).

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  3. #47
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    Quote Originally Posted by corkedbat View Post
    Yes, he does compare quite favorably to another 4th/5th OFer type.
    Agree that Hopper is nothing more than a 4th/5th outfielder but don't you know that Denorfia should be a starting CF?

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  4. #48
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Hopper is a 4th OF. A very good one. The only problem is Baker remembering he's 4th. In that regard I hope Dusty is better than Narron or even Mac. Just because a guy is a good fill in doesn;t mean he should be the starter (also see Keppinger).
    I think that is right on...if you think about the BRM years the team had GREAT back up players but only a couple really excelled when given fulltime playing opportunity.

    I love having "Good fill in players" to fill in for the every day players and hope we pick up more very good fill in players.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  5. #49
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    Agree that Hopper is nothing more than a 4th/5th outfielder but don't you know that Denorfia should be a starting CF?

    For Oakland

  6. #50
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    I don't mind Hopper as a pinch hitter, but I really would rather not see him come in as a defensive replacement. He's not a strong enough upgrade defensively to warrant his bat being in there in extra innings or even a few late at-bats.

  7. #51
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    I don't mind Hopper as a pinch hitter, but I really would rather not see him come in as a defensive replacement. He's not a strong enough upgrade defensively to warrant his bat being in there in extra innings or even a few late at-bats.
    Strongly agree.

  8. #52
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    I wouldn't mind Hopper as the starting centerfielder for next year; not long term but for a year, I'd be ok with it, although there would have to be adequate back up.

    Thing is, you can't have a slugger at every position. If the Reds trade Hamilton in a deal for a good starting pitcher, I have no problem with Hopper as a short-term starter.

    He is a good singles hitter, a good contact guy, and if he becomes a bit more selective would be a good lead off hitter. He plays acceptable center field, although I don't view him as an outstanding centerfielder.

    The Reds lineup lacks balance, it is mostly a lot of "swing and miss" types with long swings. The reason folks liked Hopper and Keppinger last year is that they provided a new dimension, guys who made contact. Long term I agree they are good backups, but -- if other guys are sacrificed for pitching -- I have no problem with Norris getting 350 to 400 at bats next year.

  9. #53
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    More important than my computer for this trip is a good, comfortable pair of shoes.
    Especially in that hotel.
    Not all who wander are lost

  10. #54
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    Hopper... .332 .379 .396 OPS... .775
    Denorfia.....278 .358 .382 OPS... .740
    Code:
    Career Stats
    
    Player		G	PA	AB	TB	BB	SO	BB:SO	OBP	SLG	OPS	AVG
    Hopper		142	372	346	137	26	37	1:1.42	.379	.396	.775	.332
    Denorfia	67	161	144	55	17	30	1:1.76	.358	.382	.740	.278
    Except you forgot to take into account that Denorfia is actually a good defender, while Norris Hopper is barely better than Ryan Freel.

    On paper, they are similar. OBP driven OPS guys. Look a little more in depth, and Hopper's OBP is AVG driven. Denorfia's is driven by having a better eye/plate discipline. Take it one step farther, and you'll know that Denorfia is the superior defender. While they might look similar, they are far from.

    Denorfia would have solved the Reds' lack of a true CF issue for 2008, but we shipped him off for some needed bullpen help, which the jury is still out if McBeth accomplished that task. Hopper, unfortunately, does not solve the CF issue for the Reds in 2008. He does, however, solve the question as to who is the 4th OF, and who should be the 1st PR off the bench.

    Denorfia and Hopper are different style players and have different values. But sure, in 2.3 times more PA over their respective careers, Hopper has edged Denorfia in OPS by a massive .035.

    Obviously Denorfia had more value to the Reds and Oakland, or else it would have been a healthy Hopper shipped to the A's for McBeth. It speaks volumes to the value of a player if he's traded while injured for a guy who's healthy.

  11. #55
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    What I don't understand about Hopper is if he's really a .750 OPS guy in the majors, then why did it take him until age 27 to do even close to that in the minors? Did he suddenly realize he could bunt for hits? Did he learn to make more contact? Does he run faster?

    I'm happy to have him as a backup OF in a pinch, but outside of that, he's out of his depth.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  12. #56
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I wouldn't mind Hopper as the starting centerfielder for next year; not long term but for a year
    The only way it can finally put tp rest this silly notion that Norris is an everyday player............................................ .....

    and it could very well shut Marty up. Well, at least on how good Norris Hopper is anyway.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  13. #57
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    The only way it can finally put tp rest this silly notion that Norris is an everyday player............................................ .....

    and it could very well shut Marty up. Well, at least on how good Norris Hopper is anyway.
    I think I'd rather let the silly notion remain as to if Hopper is an everyday player than to play him as an everyday player and find out. I don't like the anticipated results.

  14. #58
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    The issue is not Hopper's ability. I think most would agree he is a good backup outfielder. The issue is -- what sacrifices are you willing to make in the everyday lineup if more is to be spent on pitching. The Reds can't have a star at every position.

    Let's say, for example, that the Reds trade Hamilton, EE, and two minor leaguers (say, Roenicke and Wood) for Eric Bedard or Dan Haren. Let's also say that the Reds don't think Bruce should play center and needs some more AAA time.

    That potentially leaves the team with Hopper, Freel, and Keppinger to play CF and 3B. Folks may not think these guys should be regular players, but they may have to suffice to facilitate getting the pitchers the team needs.

    The other alternative would be to acquire some stop gaps until there are other candidates, kids or future acquisitions, ready to fill those spots.

  15. #59
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    The issue is not Hopper's ability. I think most would agree he is a good backup outfielder. The issue is -- what sacrifices are you willing to make in the everyday lineup if more is to be spent on pitching. The Reds can't have a star at every position.

    Let's say, for example, that the Reds trade Hamilton, EE, and two minor leaguers (say, Roenicke and Wood) for Eric Bedard or Dan Haren. Let's also say that the Reds don't think Bruce should play center and needs some more AAA time.

    That potentially leaves the team with Hopper, Freel, and Keppinger to play CF and 3B. Folks may not think these guys should be regular players, but they may have to suffice to facilitate getting the pitchers the team needs.

    The other alternative would be to acquire some stop gaps until there are other candidates, kids or future acquisitions, ready to fill those spots.
    I would rather Keppinger play everyday than Norris Hopper.

  16. #60
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    Re: Reds at Winter Meetings

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Code:
    Career Stats
    
    Player		G	PA	AB	TB	BB	SO	BB:SO	OBP	SLG	OPS	AVG
    Hopper		142	372	346	137	26	37	1:1.42	.379	.396	.775	.332
    Denorfia	67	161	144	55	17	30	1:1.76	.358	.382	.740	.278
    Except you forgot to take into account that Denorfia is actually a good defender, while Norris Hopper is barely better than Ryan Freel.

    On paper, they are similar. OBP driven OPS guys. Look a little more in depth, and Hopper's OBP is AVG driven. Denorfia's is driven by having a better eye/plate discipline. Take it one step farther, and you'll know that Denorfia is the superior defender. While they might look similar, they are far from.

    Denorfia would have solved the Reds' lack of a true CF issue for 2008, but we shipped him off for some needed bullpen help, which the jury is still out if McBeth accomplished that task. Hopper, unfortunately, does not solve the CF issue for the Reds in 2008. He does, however, solve the question as to who is the 4th OF, and who should be the 1st PR off the bench.

    Denorfia and Hopper are different style players and have different values. But sure, in 2.3 times more PA over their respective careers, Hopper has edged Denorfia in OPS by a massive .035.

    Obviously Denorfia had more value to the Reds and Oakland, or else it would have been a healthy Hopper shipped to the A's for McBeth. It speaks volumes to the value of a player if he's traded while injured for a guy who's healthy.
    But Deno is an unproven commodity in the majors to hit (much less so than Hopper at this point) and who knows how he'll rebound after that surgery. He's very risky at this point. I'm not saying McBeth was a good trade, but I like the thinking at least.


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