I know the answer is obviously pitching but why is everyone so eager to trade Votto? I know one meaningless September may not be much to gauge against but he had what 5 home runs in a month? Could be a powerhouse for years to come.
I know the answer is obviously pitching but why is everyone so eager to trade Votto? I know one meaningless September may not be much to gauge against but he had what 5 home runs in a month? Could be a powerhouse for years to come.
I dont think everyone is eager to trade him but if hes involved in a good deal for pitching we would have to be stupid to not consider it.Originally Posted by BUTLER REDSFAN
I am not. I would prefer Griifey go ASAP.
For 2008 Votto at 1B and an OF of Dunn-Bruce-Hamilton.
If this OF can't cut it defensively then trade Dunn,move Bruce to left & get a speedster for CF in 2009.
I want to keep the big 4 & keep Hamilton. Try to get someone halfway decent to give us innings in 2008 unto Cueto is ready.
A 2009 rotation of harang-bailey-arroyo-cueto-belisle could be lots better than some of the Cards recent rotations that landed them in the playoffs.
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I've been wondering that too ... people are so adament against trading Bruce while extra-willing to trade Votto.... I don't want to give up either, but would if the right pitcher came alone. I know that Bruce may be projected to be better, but I should think that the hesistance to trade should be about equal. If I read the MiLB.com right, Votto was the top 1st base prospect in baseball last year ... Bruce is the top prospect overall this year, but if a team is willing to give us, say Lincecum for:
Votto & Bailey/ Cueto OR Bruce straight-up ... I think I do Bruce straight-up...
Agreed... come on! Face it... we're rebuilding successfully. We need to go through some pain. We don't need to trade our big four to win next year. Just sign a potentially big pitcher and a big relief pitcher (like Colon, Clement, Garcia) and trade for a middle relief pitcher using lower potential prospects.
Will M is a man after my own heart. I don't think Dunn can cut it defensively. We need a speedster in CF two years from now.
I'd only trade Votto if Dunn will play first base.
I like this line of thought. That makes way for Bruce to make the Opening Day line-up. As it is now, it seems likely the Reds will again have to hold back an MLB ready player at AAA, just like they had to with Votto last spring.
I like Joey Votto. But I like Jay Bruce better.
I base it on Dan Hoard's radio interview where he gushed all over about Jay Bruce but declined comment on Votto. Hoard is probably the most respectable radio man in Cincy and is more in the know than anyone on this board, probably.
I think people on these boards are far too willing generally to trade position players for pitchers. Granted excellent pitching is essential, but the injury rate to established pitchers--and the decline rate of pitching prospects--are such that I think we should be very wary trading exceedingly promising position players, most of them with many years of relatively inexpensive performance on their clocks and nowhere near peak trading value, for starting pitchers. I hope we do not trade Votto, Bruce, Hamilton, or Encarnacion, as well as Bailey and Cueto.
Forgot to add this to my previous post. Regarding the overwillingness of RZers to trade position players for pitching, I remember a couple of years ago there was a lot of support here for trading Dunn for Edwin Jackson.
I have always been against trading Joey Votto. It simply has been too long since the Reds had a first baseman with his upside.
I'm with you. I don't trade Joey Votto. There aren't any other 1st basemen in the Reds pipeline of Votto's ability. Hopefully others on this forum will realize the benefit in having so much young, cheap talent to mix in with the veterans for years to come.... if left alone/not traded. Having pre-arbitration players will allow the payroll to stabilize and even go lower especially with Griffey's contract presumably ending after the '08 season. Exchange that money from Griff's contract for a free-agent pitcher or two next year.
I'm starting to open up to the win-in-2009 Plan. Fight thru an 80 to 85 win season this year, and use Griffey's money to sign Derek Lowe instead of rushing out and trading some talent now for a pitcher... But as Amarillo always emphasizes, we must sign Dunn to a LTC...
It just makes the most sense. We would have Hamilton in RF(assuming he isn't traded for pitching), Bruce in center, and Dunn to play left. It may be that in due course Dorn or Stubbs would prove to be a better option in left, but there is a considerable amount of time before that would happen, and we need Dunn as a starting outfielder in the meantime. I really don't want to see Votto or Hopper as a starting outfielder, and I don't know if Dickerson will ever show enough plate discipline.
It is not that I would really want to trade Votto but I want to trade Hamilton less. Hamilton is a true 5 tool player with a much higher ceiling than Votto will ever have (and look at their ages and Hamilton is not that much older which many folks don't seem to realize). Bruce comes with an even higher ceiling than Hamilton has now, probably similar or better than Hamilton's was before his difficulites of the 4 years prior to last year. So if one of these 3 has to go for pitching, it is Votto if I can package him to bring back the pitching I want.
Compotent 1st basemen are a dime a dozen and can be made from most guys who can hit (not that much difference in the hand/ eye coordination and footwork of batting versus standing basically stationary and catching throws or knockling down grounders a step a two in either direction). On the hand true 5 tool outfielders like Hamilton and Bruce are much harder to come by.
Krivsky is playing poker by showing Hamilton first and acting like the card he is not showing (Votto) is a higher card. Most likely is hoping to set up a bait (Hamilton) and switch (to Votto).
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