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Thread: Here's what Beane is asking for Haren...

  1. #61
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Here's what it would take for Haren...

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I doubt anyone confused the young Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz with the HOF versions.

    Even HOF start out as prospects.
    Fair enough.

    I'm just not comfortable with putting all my eggs in the Bailey and Cueto for the future basket.

    If I can use Bailey and Cueto in the same trade to get Dan Haren, at that point would I put all my eggs in the Dan Haren basket.

    We know what we'd get with Haren. I don't think anyone honestly knows what we may or may not have with Bailey and Cueto.

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    Re: Here's what Beane is asking for Haren...

    Thanks puffy....

    And M2, it isn't as if I don't value position players.....

    Also, I thought Bailey was one of the top pitching prospects in all of baseball......
    "Is there a problem officers?"

  4. #63
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    Re: Here's what Beane is asking for Haren...

    Quote Originally Posted by red-in-la View Post
    Thanks puffy....

    And M2, it isn't as if I don't value position players.....

    Also, I thought Bailey was one of the top pitching prospects in all of baseball......
    he is.

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    Re: Here's what it would take for Haren...

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Fair enough.

    I'm just not comfortable with putting all my eggs in the Bailey and Cueto for the future basket.

    If I can use Bailey and Cueto in the same trade to get Dan Haren, at that point would I put all my eggs in the Dan Haren basket.

    We know what we'd get with Haren. I don't think anyone honestly knows what we may or may not have with Bailey and Cueto.

    I know that all prospects are acrap shoot, but so are established starters sometimes.

    I'm just not certain I would sacrifice 12 years of Bailey /Cueto (6 years each) for 3 years of Haren.

    If that gamble backfires, we simply won't recover. We can't spend our way out of it like the Yankees or BoSox could do. I'm willing to gamble that at least one of Bailey/Cueto gives us 6 good years. I think it's a gamble that teams with lower payrolls have to be willing to make.

  6. #65
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    Re: Here's what Beane is asking for Haren...

    Not both pitchers. I hate to trade young pitching that has a shot. Especially in a small market. I haven't seen Curerto so not sure what's there. Homer looks like he can be a #3 or good #4 this year, but needs consistancy. Be nice to have Haren though and you have to give up something to get something. Do they need a utility guy like el golden hands?
    And This One Belongs to the REDS!!!

  7. #66
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    Re: Here's what it would take for Haren...

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I know that all prospects are acrap shoot, but so are established starters sometimes.

    I'm just not certain I would sacrifice 12 years of Bailey /Cueto (6 years each) for 3 years of Haren.

    If that gamble backfires, we simply won't recover. We can't spend our way out of it like the Yankees or BoSox could do. I'm willing to gamble that at least one of Bailey/Cueto gives us 6 good years. I think it's a gamble that teams with lower payrolls have to be willing to make.

    I guess I just can't concede the idea that Cincinnati will remain a "small market" or "low payroll" team. Simply due to inflation alone, if the Reds don't intend to have a payroll in the window of 75-90 by 2009, then we might as well just bring in the moving vans, pack up GABP and call it quits. Just to keep our heads above water, we need to grow the brand, the market, and in turn the payroll.

  8. #67
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Here's what it would take for Haren...

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I know that all prospects are acrap shoot, but so are established starters sometimes.

    I'm just not certain I would sacrifice 12 years of Bailey /Cueto (6 years each) for 3 years of Haren.

    If that gamble backfires, we simply won't recover. We can't spend our way out of it like the Yankees or BoSox could do. I'm willing to gamble that at least one of Bailey/Cueto gives us 6 good years. I think it's a gamble that teams with lower payrolls have to be willing to make.
    And if Bailey/Cueto don't work out, where does that leave the Reds?

    The team has a brief window. Haren would be a perfect fit.

    The Reds have played the waiting game with their prospects for a long, long time. I think it's time to stop waiting and make a bold move for today.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  9. #68
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Here's what it would take for Haren...

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    And if Bailey/Cueto don't work out, where does that leave the Reds?

    The team has a brief window. Haren would be a perfect fit.

    The Reds have played the waiting game with their prospects for a long, long time. I think it's time to stop waiting and make a bold move for today.
    Well, the Reds probably have good faith that Bailey and Cueto will work out. The Reds may have waited for their prospects for a long, long time.... but they never really have had the types of prospects that they have right now.... well except when they had those guys in the mid 80s. That one worked out pretty well for them.

    I don't have a crystal ball with the right answers for what is the better move for the Reds to make with regards to Haren and Bailey/Cueto.... I just know what I would do.

  10. #69
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    Re: Here's what Beane is asking for Haren...

    Quote Originally Posted by red-in-la View Post
    Also, I thought Bailey was one of the top pitching prospects in all of baseball......
    That's a bit of a dubious distinction.

    Here's a list of pitching prospects who've ranked in BA's top 10 1990-2005. I'll sort them into three piles (yes, no and reliever).

    Steve Avery, Ben McDonald, Pedro Martinez, Jason Bere, Livan Hernandez, Kerry Wood, Kris Benson, Carl Pavano, Brad Penny, Matt Clement, Ben Sheets, C.C. Sabathia, Mark Prior, Jose Contreras, Felix Hernandez, Scott Kazmir (16)

    Kiki Jones, Todd Van Poppel, Roger Salkeld, Brien Taylor, Frankie Rodriguez, Allen Watson, Tyrone Hill, James Baldwin, Jose Silva, Paul Wilson, Alan Benes, Matt White, Rick Ankiel, Bruce Chen, Ryan Anderson, John Patterson, Jesse Foppert, Gavin Floyd, Edwin Jackson, Greg Miller (20)

    Arthur Lee Rhodes, Jon Rauch, Juan Cruz, Francisco Rodriguez (4)

    It's fairly hit and miss even with your top ranked pitching prospects. Even the good pitchers BA properly identified are a problematic bunch. There isn't a lot of sustained excellence in that group. Pedro and C.C. are the only two future Cy Young winners of the bunch.

    So when we say Homer Bailey is one of the top pitching prospects in all of baseball, what we're saying is toss a coin.
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    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Here's what Beane is asking for Haren...

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    That's a bit of a dubious distinction.

    Here's a list of pitching prospects who've ranked in BA's top 10 1990-2005. I'll sort them into three piles (yes, no and reliever).

    Steve Avery, Ben McDonald, Pedro Martinez, Jason Bere, Livan Hernandez, Kerry Wood, Kris Benson, Carl Pavano, Brad Penny, Matt Clement, Ben Sheets, C.C. Sabathia, Mark Prior, Jose Contreras, Felix Hernandez, Scott Kazmir (16)

    Kiki Jones, Todd Van Poppel, Roger Salkeld, Brien Taylor, Frankie Rodriguez, Allen Watson, Tyrone Hill, James Baldwin, Jose Silva, Paul Wilson, Alan Benes, Matt White, Rick Ankiel, Bruce Chen, Ryan Anderson, John Patterson, Jesse Foppert, Gavin Floyd, Edwin Jackson, Greg Miller (20)

    Arthur Lee Rhodes, Jon Rauch, Juan Cruz, Francisco Rodriguez (4)

    It's fairly hit and miss even with your top ranked pitching prospects. Even the good pitchers BA properly identified are a problematic bunch. There isn't a lot of sustained excellence in that group. Pedro and C.C. are the only two future Cy Young winners of the bunch.

    So when we say Homer Bailey is one of the top pitching prospects in all of baseball, what we're saying is toss a coin.
    Just out of curiosity, why'd Ben McDonald and Jason Bere go into the "yes" category?

  12. #71
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Here's what it would take for Haren...

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    I guess I just can't concede the idea that Cincinnati will remain a "small market" or "low payroll" team. Simply due to inflation alone, if the Reds don't intend to have a payroll in the window of 75-90 by 2009, then we might as well just bring in the moving vans, pack up GABP and call it quits. Just to keep our heads above water, we need to grow the brand, the market, and in turn the payroll.

    5 years ago, if someone would have said that in 2008 the Reds would have an $80-90M payroll people would have jumped for joy. Now, you're just keeping up with the Joneses. It's like that $25M the Reds received in merchandising. Hey, $25M is nothing to sniff at but the Red Sox received the same amount, the Cubs received the same amount and the Yankees received the same amount. I don't think the Reds will ever be low payroll like the Florida teams but all they are doing now is keeping up with the Joneses.
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  13. #72
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    Re: Here's what it would take for Haren...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    5 years ago, if someone would have said that in 2008 the Reds would have an $80-90M payroll people would have jumped for joy. Now, you're just keeping up with the Joneses. It's like that $25M the Reds received in merchandising. Hey, $25M is nothing to sniff at but the Red Sox received the same amount, the Cubs received the same amount and the Yankees received the same amount. I don't think the Reds will ever be low payroll like the Florida teams but all they are doing now is keeping up with the Joneses.
    If you wanna put butts in seats on a weekday, put a winning product on the field. It isn't rocket science. Weekends take care of themselves b/c there's not much else to do in town.

    For the Reds to attempt to put that winning product on the field, they have to do better than keeping up with the Joneses. They need to live outside their means for a season or two and field a team that maybe they can't 100% afford. Part of me thinks that with the Cordero signing, we're at the beginning of a financial revolution in the Queen City. The other part of me thinks that we just paid market price for a closer, and the FO thinks we have that final piece to the puzzle for 2008.

  14. #73
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Here's what Beane is asking for Haren...

    This makes sense. If we were trading Harang, I'd want at least two or three top prospects in return. Haren is better than Aaron, and along with Bedard he is probably the most valuable starter on the market given age, contract and performance. Beane should be asking for nothing less than Bruce + another of our top 4. WK will then have to decide where his interests lie.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  15. #74
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Here's what Beane is asking for Haren...

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Just out of curiosity, why'd Ben McDonald and Jason Bere go into the "yes" category?
    Because I was being extremely generous.

    As I noted, that "yes" group is no picnic.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  16. #75
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    Re: Here's what Beane is asking for Haren...

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Just out of curiosity, why'd Ben McDonald and Jason Bere go into the "yes" category?
    I'll go you one more: why is Sheets in there? or Prior?


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