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Thread: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

  1. #16
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    Yeah, if Bailey and Votto would get the deal done, it would have happened already, IMO. From the original reports, they want big time offesne in return. Votto is good, but I don't think he's considered a big time offense player in the minds of most organization. He'll be above average, but if the O's truly wanted to get significant offense in return, I doubt Votto is the guy that gets it done. Hamilton, maybe. Bruce, probably. But Votto, I"d have to say no. If the talks are truly on going, my speculation would be that they want Bruce and are holding out for him.
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  3. #17
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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by corkedbat View Post
    Most would agree, but if Bailey/Cueto, Hamilton/Votto and any number of B prospects would have gotten the deal done, Bedard would already be in a Reds uniform though.

    It would seem, at this point, you would have to include Bruce or at least three from among Bailey, Cueto, Hamilton, Votto, Phillips & Encarnacion to land 2yrs. of Bedard. I would not do it. It will be interesting to see what the price is as ST & the season near though and some of the other pitching dominoes start to fall.
    What you just typed makes that "blind" teaser from RedEye all the more tantalizing... makes sense, they're going to try to drum up as much talent as they can, while in actuality there are already enough chips on the table to get the deal done in the end.
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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    Just like in the middle and late 80s, the Reds had a bunch of crown jewels in Davis, Daniels, O'Neill, Jones, Stillwell, Larkin and Oliver. The Reds had to decide which ones to keep and which ones to deal for pitching to keep them in contention (Stillwell for Jackson; Daniels for Belcher).

    Fast forward to the present and decide who you would like to part among the likes of Hamilton, Bruce, Votto, Bailey and Cueto.
    If you think small, you'll go nowhere in life.

  5. #19
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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Trading Bailey and Votto while hanging on to Bruce, Cueto, and Hamilton is hardly gutting the future.
    If trading Bailey, Votto & prospects would land you a Bedard, Haren or Kazmir it would already done. It will not. Whether that changes over the next 3 or 4 months is debatable.

  6. #20
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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    It seems like Fay is driving up the price of Benard.

  7. #21
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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by corkedbat View Post
    Most would agree, but if Bailey/Cueto, Hamilton/Votto and any number of B prospects would have gotten the deal done, Bedard would already be in a Reds uniform though.
    I don't think this is the case. I think the Orioles are being deliberate with this, and sitting back to see how the Santana and Haren deals pan out. They can afford to wait awhile and leverage different offers against one another. I'm sure Wayne is still in contact with them. Whether the deal gets done is another thing (the Reds may lose out to the Dodgers on this one), but I'm sure the lines are still open.
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  8. #22
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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    It seems like Fay is driving up the price of Benard.
    If anyone in baseball lets a beat writer drive up the price of a player, then that person is not qualified for their job.

  9. #23
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    I will once again direct you all to the best "insider" information on this deal that I know of right now. It's an interview with an anonymous assitant GM who talks about the plans to "tear down" his team this off-season. The author of the piece wrote to me personally after I posted this on another RedsZone thread, and he vouches that the organization in question is indeed the Orioles. Just scroll down to the last segment entitled "A Beautiful Quote" for the scoop.

    http://prospectinsider.com/2007/12/0...th-shattering/

    To my mind (and the author's), "Ricky" is clearly Bedard. Fay is not out on a limb here. I think people "in the know" are pretty much expecting a Bedard deal to happen... it's just a question of when and to whom.
    Last edited by RedEye; 12-09-2007 at 01:15 PM.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  10. #24
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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    If anyone in baseball lets a beat writer drive up the price of a player, then that person is not qualified for their job.
    Right, but it gives the Orioles a reason to drive a harder bargain, and for Krivsky to walk away.

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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    to me, i keep Cueto, Bruce and offer Bailey, Hamilton and Votto and Peland/or maloney

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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by corkedbat View Post
    Most would agree, but if Bailey/Cueto, Hamilton/Votto and any number of B prospects would have gotten the deal done, Bedard would already be in a Reds uniform though.

    It would seem, at this point, you would have to include Bruce or at least three from among Bailey, Cueto, Hamilton, Votto, Phillips & Encarnacion to land 2yrs. of Bedard. I would not do it. It will be interesting to see what the price is as ST & the season near though and some of the other pitching dominoes start to fall.
    I don't think so. I think that Bailey, Votto/Hamilton, and Stubbs could do it. Obviously, none of us really know. But I think the O's will hold out for a while, and hopefully the price will come down.
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  13. #27
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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Krusty View Post
    Just like in the middle and late 80s, the Reds had a bunch of crown jewels in Davis, Daniels, O'Neill, Jones, Stillwell, Larkin and Oliver. The Reds had to decide which ones to keep and which ones to deal for pitching to keep them in contention (Stillwell for Jackson; Daniels for Belcher).

    Fast forward to the present and decide who you would like to part among the likes of Hamilton, Bruce, Votto, Bailey and Cueto.
    Put me down for aiming a little lower to get two solid but not Cy Young caliber starters while hanging on to most of the core. I'd rather get lesser guys who project to solid mid-rotation guys for 4 or 5 years than dealing a ton of the future for one guy who is gone after 2009.

    My trade bait would be Dunn if there is no plan to sign him, or Hamilton if the plan is to lock Dunn up. That should be enough of a centerpiece to get one needed solid mid-rotation guy.

    My other choice would be to deal EdE. Keppinger can step in now and Frazier, Rosales, Waring and Francisco should provide plenty of options long term. That should be enough of a centerpiece to get a number 4 type with a little upside from a rebuilding team in need of young position players.

    In both cases I'd have a large pool of cheap, young and useful players that could be added including McBeth, Pelland, Coutlangus, Hopper, etc. Maloney and Roenicke could also be included but I would try to avoid eating up too much of the pitching pipeline. I wouldn't deal Bruce, Cueto or Bailey at this point and only Votto if there was no other way.
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  14. #28
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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    Right, but it gives the Orioles a reason to drive a harder bargain, and for Krivsky to walk away.
    I'd love to add a Stud starter to Harang & Arroyo, but I'm all for walking away too unless the price is right. I think a deal for Bedard or another frontend starter is still possible (probably moreso than at any time in the last six years), but I don't offer more than two from among Hamilton, Votto, Bailey & Cueto (one pitcher/one positon player) plus a B prospect or two.

    I'm not so sure another route might not be better in the long run and I'd hope that WK is fully exploring that too.

    I would add at least two starters before spring traing and I'm not certain that a younger #3-type (or two) might the best way to go.

    I'm talking about targeting guys like Blanton, Baker, Slowey, Cain, Snell, Greinke, Garza or a TB starter.

    One approach might be to see if I can find a guy I like that I can acquire for bait like Hatteburg, Freel, Ross, Salmon, McBeth, Coffee, Gonzalez and/or a combination of any prospect not in the big five (I'd probably be resistant on Roenicke too, but It wouldn't be a deal breaker).

    If I had to include a Blue Chip it would be Votto or Hamilton - I don't include Cueto or Bailey for a second tier starter - plus one or two of the vets/B prospects above.

    For a second starter, maybe I do both the previously mentioned deals or do one and I work the best short-term deal (1yr. or 1 + club option) I can with Lieber, Colon, Clement or Hernandez for the 4th or 5th spot.

    I also sign Tomko to a minor league contract if he will. I then let Tomko, Bailey, Belisle, Shearn, Cueto and Maloney slug it out for he other 4th or fith spot spot.

    If Bailey shows he has decent control and is ready to take the right approach and pitch efficiently the spot is his. If not he starts the season in Louisville. Cueto and Maloney have to be absolutely pitch lights out to avoid April as a Bat. Tomko, Belisle and Shern could also be the long man/spot starter (& 11th/12th man on the staff).

    If the Free Agent, Belisle, Tomko and Shearn are all pitching well in addition to Bailey? Somebody will be looking for a fifth starter and we can always use a prospect or two. I'd like to have several options to for the back of the rotation though in case of injury and to avoid rushing a rookie.

    I'd love to add a number 1 or 2 starter, but one of these other scenarios might get them into the division/wild card race and allow us to hold on to all (or at least 4) of our 5 stud youngsters.
    Last edited by corkedbat; 12-09-2007 at 03:04 PM.

  15. #29
    Greatness In The Making RedLegSuperStar's Avatar
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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    I will once again direct you all to the best "insider" information on this deal that I know of right now. It's an interview with an anonymous assitant GM who talks about the plans to "tear down" his team this off-season. The author of the piece wrote to me personally after I posted this on another RedsZone thread, and he vouches that the organization in question is indeed the Orioles. Just scroll down to the last segment entitled "A Beautiful Quote" for the scoop.

    http://prospectinsider.com/2007/12/0...th-shattering/

    To my mind (and the author's), "Ricky" is clearly Bedard. Fay is not out on a limb here. I think people "in the know" are pretty much expecting a Bedard deal to happen... it's just a question of when and to whom.
    So we have to battle Seattle or someone on the Westcoast for Bedard? Is that what I'm reading in the article?

    As long as we can keep Bruce and Cueto I think that would be good. But if they want more then why not do a huge deal much like the Marlins and Tigers.. Something on the lines of:

    Bailey, Hamilton, Votto, A. Gonzalez, 3 Prospects (not named Bruce or Cueto) to Baltimore

    Bedard, Tajada, and Hayden Penn to Reds
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  16. #30
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    Re: Fay's Sunday Column: Reds Must Get Big Time Pitcher

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Put me down for aiming a little lower to get two solid but not Cy Young caliber starters while hanging on to most of the core. I'd rather get lesser guys who project to solid mid-rotation guys for 4 or 5 years than dealing a ton of the future for one guy who is gone after 2009.

    My trade bait would be Dunn if there is no plan to sign him, or Hamilton if the plan is to lock Dunn up. That should be enough of a centerpiece to get one needed solid mid-rotation guy.

    My other choice would be to deal EdE. Keppinger can step in now and Frazier, Rosales, Waring and Francisco should provide plenty of options long term. That should be enough of a centerpiece to get a number 4 type with a little upside from a rebuilding team in need of young position players.

    In both cases I'd have a large pool of cheap, young and useful players that could be added including McBeth, Pelland, Coutlangus, Hopper, etc. Maloney and Roenicke could also be included but I would try to avoid eating up too much of the pitching pipeline. I wouldn't deal Bruce, Cueto or Bailey at this point and only Votto if there was no other way.
    Love your thinking, but I would add Votto to the no trade list.


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