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Thread: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

  1. #31
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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    He's been harangued though.
    And hudsoned.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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  3. #32
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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    He seeks what he wants that you possess.

    Hey, didn't you steal that line from Hannibal Lector in Silence of the Lambs?

    I think it was right before he ate some guys ear....

  4. #33
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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Hey, didn't you steal that line from Hannibal Lector in Silence of the Lambs?

    I think it was right before he ate some guys ear....
    Beane can cannibalize a team's farm. True dat.

  5. #34
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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    FCB, you pretend as if Beane has never made a bad deal in his life....

    If the Diamondbacks really made that offer, then the odds are that they have at least talked prior to making that formal offer and the Diamondbacks had a general idea of what he was looking for.

    I would say that the Reds have several players that would interest Beane that aren't named Jay Bruce. I would also ask why you would assume that Beane would only be interested in Cueto as a bullpen arm?

  6. #35
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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    FCB, you pretend as if Beane has never made a bad deal in his life....

    If the Diamondbacks really made that offer, then the odds are that they have at least talked prior to making that formal offer and the Diamondbacks had a general idea of what he was looking for.

    I would say that the Reds have several players that would interest Beane that aren't named Jay Bruce. I would also ask why you would assume that Beane would only be interested in Cueto as a bullpen arm?
    FCB hasta hate on Reds prospects. It's in his contract.
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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    FCB, you pretend as if Beane has never made a bad deal in his life....

    If the Diamondbacks really made that offer, then the odds are that they have at least talked prior to making that formal offer and the Diamondbacks had a general idea of what he was looking for.
    arm.
    Sure he's made bad deals. But when is the last time Beane has accepted a deal like the one the D-Backs are offering? Especially when he doesn't have to move Haren this minute.

    The answer is, of course, never.

  8. #37
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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Sure he's made bad deals. But when is the last time Beane has accepted a deal like the one the D-Backs are offering? Especially when he doesn't have to move Haren this minute.

    The answer is, of course, never.
    Valid point. I don't think he takes that deal either, but if that is the starting point, the Reds could easily blow that out of the water without getting near Jay Bruce. While Beane may want Jay Bruce, I would say if the Reds really wanted to make a deal for Haren, they could get it done without giving up Bruce (although still giving up plenty of talent).

  9. #38
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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Sure he's made bad deals. But when is the last time Beane has accepted a deal like the one the D-Backs are offering? Especially when he doesn't have to move Haren this minute.

    The answer is, of course, never.
    It's a starting point, and it came from somewhere -- presumably preliminary talks with King Beane the Infallible.

    If that's an offer that starts a conversation, then the Reds can force their way into the talks with better players. Beane may want Jay Bruce, but it'd be the height of arrogance and stupidity to turn down a good deal just because you're waiting for a player to come available that never may.
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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    It's a starting point, and it came from somewhere -- presumably preliminary talks with King Beane the Infallible.

    If that's an offer that starts a conversation, then the Reds can force their way into the talks with better players. Beane may want Jay Bruce, but it'd be the height of arrogance and stupidity to turn down a good deal just because you're waiting for a player to come available that never may.
    Is it the height of arrogance? Beane's got time on his side; that's why he's dangling Haren now and not at the last minute. That's just smart.

    And really--that report of the players offered in the D-Backs deal could be what they offered and what Beane rebuffed; we have no way of knowing Beane seriously entertained the deal or not. Really, we actually have no idea if the deal was offered at all, as sports' writers are notorious fabricators of information.

    Why would you accept less than what you want when you don't have to? Why is that arrogance?

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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Why would you accept less than what you want when you don't have to? Why is that arrogance?
    Arrogance to assume that holding your breath until you turn blue will actually get mom and dad to buy the new bicycle for you.

    Beane may have time with Haren, but it is far from a certainty that the offers will get any better than they are right now. If there's a prime offer of young talent on the table, it might not be exactly what Beane wants, but it might be the best option for his team to take it now and get on with the business of rebuilding. He could spend lifetimes waiting for the perfect offer and watch as it never came and teams like Cincinnati get scared off as Haren gets closer to the market. The best time to deal might well be now.

    Especially considering that ANY pitcher is just a windup away from eradicating his own trade value.
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  12. #41
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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Arrogance to assume that holding your breath until you turn blue will actually get mom and dad to buy the new bicycle for you.
    I think the analogy fails because Beane isn't doing harm to himself by holding back. It's not as if he owes it to anybody to trade away Haren. If he sees a deal that he thinks will improve his team, he'll make it. If he has reason to believe that waiting will net him a better offer, then by all means. It's not as if he's refusing to deal out of spite at the expense of his own team.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  13. #42
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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Sure he's made bad deals. But when is the last time Beane has accepted a deal like the one the D-Backs are offering? Especially when he doesn't have to move Haren this minute.

    The answer is, of course, never.
    By the same token, Beane's never dealt for a top tier prospect. Juan Cruz was a former top prospect. Haren turned out better than the prognosicators expected (and to think that once upon a time I had to argue he was a better prospect than Ty Howington).

    Beane usually not demanding Cristal. To his credit, he's far more pragmatic than that.
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  14. #43
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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    By the same token, Beane's never dealt for a top tier prospect. Juan Cruz was a former top prospect. Haren turned out better than the prognosicators expected (and to think that once upon a time I had to argue he was a better prospect than Ty Howington).

    Beane usually not demanding Cristal. To his credit, he's far more pragmatic than that.
    He is pragmatic, but as I said, it comes down what he wants, not what he'll settle for.

    It just so happens that Bruce--being the Reds' Cristal--is exactly who he'd target from the Reds. I can't imagine in any universe Beane dealing Haren for Cueto, a guy most smart folks would be wise to slot in the pen. Beane gets teams to cough up effective relievers as throw-ins to deals.

    For Haren Beane will get an all-star caliber bat or a rotation arm very nearly ready to produce. He'll get it too.

  15. #44
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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    I can't imagine in any universe Beane dealing Haren for Cueto, a guy most smart folks would be wise to slot in the pen.
    You keep saying this, but I've yet to read a consensus from the "smart folks" of the baseball world that place Cueto in the bullpen.

    In fact, I'd be interested to hear who exactly is slotting Cueto into a bullpen role and what, if anything they're basing that determination on other than a quick glance at number "5" in his height.
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  16. #45
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    Re: Diamondbacks make offer for Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    It just so happens that Bruce--being the Reds' Cristal--is exactly who he'd target from the Reds.
    That's your invention.

    Since the best information we have on this is that Carlos Gonzalez, a RF with a CF bat, is the main guy in the talks with the DBacks, I think it's fair to say that your insistence that Bruce would have to be in on the deal is inoperable.

    Joey Votto is a vastly superior (not to mention ready to produce) bat in comparison to Gonzalez. So let's not act like the A's are onto some other Brucian bat here. They're currently onto a Drew Stubbs-level player. Votto or Hamilton would be a massive upgrade.

    Who's offering a pitcher in the high minors with Bailey's pedigree? The Dbacks are offering a chunky pitchability kid. Bailey's at the top of the prospect pitching market. He'd literally be the best regarded prospect for whom Beane has ever dealt.

    So you can keep saying Bruce, but until I see an offer that's comparable to Bailey, Votto and Maloney (which is as good a deal as what the Marlins got for Miggy Cabrera AND Dontrelle Willis, if not better), then I see no reason why Bruce is some sort of must.

    Perhaps Beane will decide not to deal Haren unless he gets a Bruce, but I'm seeing no indication that anyone's put together anything like an offer the Reds couldn't trump easily with a non-Bruce package.
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