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Thread: Here we go...Haren/D'backs get Haren

  1. #151
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    The surest way for this franchise to continue losing is to keep doing business as usual.

    Saying "Boy, I sure hope Homer Bailey and Johnny Cueto solve this rotation mess we're in" is business as usual.
    Go BLUE!!!

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  3. #152
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    The surest way for this franchise to continue losing is to keep doing business as usual.

    Saying "Boy, I sure hope Homer Bailey and Johnny Cueto solve this rotation mess we're in" is business as usual.
    Except thats not business as usual at all. Business as usual would be 'boy I hope this Yankee prospect we traded for who already has a major arm surgery notched on his belt and signing with washed up arm will solve this rotational mess we're in'.

    The Reds haven't had this type of problem since before I was born almost with these type of arms. Its nowhere near 'business as usual'.

  4. #153
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    The surest way for this franchise to continue losing is to keep doing business as usual.

    Saying "Boy, I sure hope Homer Bailey and Johnny Cueto solve this rotation mess we're in" is business as usual.
    Business as usual implies we've had prospects as talented and advanced as those two primed to make an impact.

    Bailey and Cueto are just a tad closer to "real" than Ty Howington and Chris Gruler.

    It's not like we're sitting here saying we're all set because Daryl Thompson is on the way. Business as usual would involved jerking those 2 around for the next two years between starting, relieving, and Louisville the first time they stumble, killing their value and wasting their pre-arb years, followed by shipping them off somewhere for pennies on the dollar.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  5. #154
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    The surest way for this franchise to continue losing is to keep doing business as usual.

    Saying "Boy, I sure hope Homer Bailey and Johnny Cueto solve this rotation mess we're in" is business as usual.
    Well said CE.

    I maintain that the biggest hurdle keeping this franchise from winning (not competing, but actually winning) is turning hypothetical talent into actual talent.

    We have boatloads of hypothetical talent. It's the actual talent department that's severely lacking.

  6. #155
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post

    Bailey and Cueto are just a tad closer to "real" than Ty Howington and Chris Gruler.

    they're Scott Scudder and Jack Armstrong?

  7. #156
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Notice how we built to 1990 not by trading for an ace that was already formed but by trading for Jose Rijo and adding him to our stable of young arms, including the two you mentioned. Armstrong was an all-star in 1990 and one of the anchors of a rotation that carried us wire-to-wire.

    Would have trading Armstrong, Kal Daniels, and Reggie Sanders in the middle of 1989 for say, Teddy Higuera, have been worth it? Obviously there are all kinds of names you can throw around to paint the scenario differently. But I don't remember either Armstrong or Scudder being tabbed the best pitching prospect in baseball by the time they were ready to contribute.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  8. #157
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Notice how we built to 1990 not by trading for an ace that was already formed but by trading for Jose Rijo and adding him to our stable of young arms, including the two you mentioned.
    we traded for Danny Jackson. it was worth it.


    we'd be happy to trade our Dave Parker (KGJ) for a young Jose Rijo. M2 tells me that someone will do that.

  9. #158
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Well said CE.

    I maintain that the biggest hurdle keeping this franchise from winning (not competing, but actually winning) is turning hypothetical talent into actual talent.

    We have boatloads of hypothetical talent. It's the actual talent department that's severely lacking.
    LOL. You completely missed his point.

  10. #159
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post

    As the MLB Fantasy 411 guys say, Strength Loves Certainty, Weakness Loves Risk. I'm of the opinion that the Reds should work cautiously building a bit more strength before locking certainty. I advocate sitting tight now if a deal requires two or more of the 4+1 and see where we are in July.
    You can interpret that platitude in many ways.

    I think Bedard and Haren carry far more certainty than Bailey, Cueto, and Bruce.

    Standing pat is basically risking the present for an uncertain future. You're saying the team isn't strong enough now to make a deal that could lead to an immediate run at the pennant.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  11. #160
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Well, hearing this is definitely positive. I was a little concerned that Wayne was too fixated with Bedard and when that happens, you're likely to overpay. You can't set your eyes on just 1 prize. So, this is a positive thing in my mind.

    Now, hopefully he can get this deal done with one of these teams.

  12. #161
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    Well, hearing this is definitely positive. I was a little concerned that Wayne was too fixated with Bedard and when that happens, you're likely to overpay. You can't set your eyes on just 1 prize. So, this is a positive thing in my mind.

    Now, hopefully he can get this deal done with one of these teams.
    I'll say this: if Krivsky can land Bedard or Haren without giving up all of the Big 3, he will have redeemed himself in my eyes for the Kearns/Lopez fiasco.

    If he manages to do it while keeping 2 of the Big 3, I'll send him a written apology for all the bad things I wrote about him on RedsZone.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  13. #162
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    we traded for Danny Jackson. it was worth it.


    we'd be happy to trade our Dave Parker (KGJ) for a young Jose Rijo. M2 tells me that someone will do that.
    We traded away Ted Power (33, declining, and a year away from free agency) along with Stillwell (who had accomplished something on the order of bupkis) for Danny Jackson. That's like trading Arroyo and Drew Stubbs for Haren. You can bet your life I'd do that.

    The price was right in that case. In the others, it was smarter to hold on to the young guys. Hence my advocacy for a Capuano deal instead.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 12-12-2007 at 05:15 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  14. #163
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    I'll say this: if Krivsky can land Bedard or Haren without giving up all of the Big 3, he will have redeemed himself in my eyes for the Kearns/Lopez fiasco.

    If he manages to do it while keeping 2 of the Big 3, I'll send him a written apology for all the bad things I wrote about him on RedsZone.
    I'm assuming the big 3 to you is Cueto, Bailey and Bruce?

    What if it was 1 of the big three, but then like 2 other good players like Votto and Hamilton for instance?

  15. #164
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    We traded away Ted Power (33, declining, and a year away from free agency) along with Stillwell (who had accomplished something on the order of bupkis) for Danny Jackson. That's like trading Arroyo and Drew Stubbs for Bedard. You can bet your life I'd do that.
    trading Stillwell was akin to trading away Homer Bailey. He'd previously been named number 1 prospect in all of baseball-- though I much preferred Larkin, as did the Reds-- but struggled in first exposure to big leagues

  16. #165
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    We traded away Ted Power (33, declining, and a year away from free agency) along with Stillwell (who had accomplished something on the order of bupkis) for Danny Jackson. That's like trading Arroyo and Drew Stubbs for Bedard. You can bet your life I'd do that.
    I don't think BA had top 100 lists back in the mid-80s, but if they did Kurt Stillwell would have been top 10 at least twice. He was a very big deal at the time. If you want a current comp for him (or at least for what people expected of him) Troy Tulowitzki would be a fairly good pick.

    Meanwhile Jackson was viewed as a somewhat disappointing pitcher in KC. The fear was he was never going to get over his control issues.

    I went to college with a Royals fan who kept insisting the Royals fleeced the Reds on that deal.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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