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Thread: Here we go...Haren/D'backs get Haren

  1. #166
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    trading Stillwell was akin to trading away Homer Bailey. He'd previously been named number 1 prospect in all of baseball
    Was he #1 overall? I remember him at the top of every Reds list and I remember the Mazeroski guide and SI gushing over him, but I wasn't sure if he attained #1 in all of baseball.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  3. #167
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Fair enough M2, I'll defer to the people who remember it personally. That said, do you think an offer of Power and Stillwell is of less, equal, greater value to that of say Bailey, Votto, and Wood?
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  4. #168
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Aronchis View Post
    LOL. You completely missed his point.
    Nah, I got his point. Business as usual for the Reds would be to pin our hopes on Bailey and Cueto. Both of them may develop. One of them may develop. Neither of them may develop. The Reds, since the Griffey trade, have made a habit of sitting on their hands, rather than addressing the 25 man roster. Our way of addressing the 25 man roster has been by playing Russian Roulette with our prospects, by hoping they will develop.

    Like I said, we can't keep hoping our potential talent turns into actual talent, b/c the track record has been dismal. We need to trade our potential talent for actual talent. Something that wouldn't be business as usual for the Reds.

  5. #169
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Fair enough M2, I'll defer to the people who remember it personally. That said, do you think an offer of Power and Stillwell is of less, equal, greater value to that of say Bailey, Votto, and Wood?
    Less because it was one stud and not two, but Jackson wasn't perceived as being an ace either.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  6. #170
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    I'm assuming the big 3 to you is Cueto, Bailey and Bruce?

    What if it was 1 of the big three, but then like 2 other good players like Votto and Hamilton for instance?
    Yes, those are the Big 3.

    If he trades Bruce, he has to keep one or both of Votto and Hamilton. Otherwise he's giving up too many bats.

    A package of Cueto or Bailey plus Votto and Hamilton for Bedard or Haren would make me ecstatic.
    Last edited by Johnny Footstool; 12-12-2007 at 06:44 PM.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  7. #171
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Was he #1 overall? I remember him at the top of every Reds list and I remember the Mazeroski guide and SI gushing over him, but I wasn't sure if he attained #1 in all of baseball.

    I seem to recall Mazeroski naming Stillwell and Larkin 1 and 2 in all of baseball one year. I could be mistaken.

  8. #172
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    I seem to recall Mazeroski naming Stillwell and Larkin 1 and 2 in all of baseball one year. I could be mistaken.
    Sounds about right.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  9. #173
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    I seem to recall Mazeroski naming Stillwell and Larkin 1 and 2 in all of baseball one year. I could be mistaken.
    Rumor has it the Royals were given the choice of Stillwell or Larkin, and they chose Stillwell.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  10. #174
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I went to college with a Royals fan who kept insisting the Royals fleeced the Reds on that deal.
    Wow, that's akin to FCB still insisting that we should have traded Bailey in a package for Jennings while we had the chance.

  11. #175
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    Rumor has it the Royals were given the choice of Stillwell or Larkin, and they chose Stillwell.

    from the Reds FO, I've heard it the other way

    but people also like to make themselves look smarter than they really were, so who knows.

  12. #176
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    from the Reds FO, I've heard it the other way

    but people also like to make themselves look smarter than they really were, so who knows.
    The other way, how? The Royals chose Larkin, and the Reds talked them out of it? Or the Royals allowed the Reds to choose, and the Reds chose Larkin?
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  13. #177
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Less because it was one stud and not two, but Jackson wasn't perceived as being an ace either.
    This is what I find interesting. Given that "ace" status is highly correlated with ERA. Here is how the various pitchers look in the 3 years leading to the actual or imagined trade.

    Danny Jackson
    Age 23: 208.0 IP, 121 ERA+
    Age 24: 185.7 IP, 132 ERA+
    Age 25: 224.0 IP, 114 ERA+
    AVG: 206 IP, 122 ERA+

    Dan Haren
    Age 24: 217.0 IP, 117 ERA+
    Age 25: 223.0 IP, 108 ERA+
    Age 26: 222.7 IP, 137 ERA+
    AVG: 221 IP, 121 ERA+

    Erik Bedard
    Age 26: 141.7 IP, 108 ERA+
    Age 27: 196.3 IP, 121 ERA+
    Age 28: 182.0 IP, 146 ERA+
    AVG: 173 IP, 126 ERA+

    I wonder if Jackson was being devalued not just because of his control problems but because he was the third most effective out of the trio with Saberhagen and Gubicza; Perhaps comparable to the Oakland situation of a few years back. Clearly Bedard, due to his age, contract, and lack of durability is the odd duck out here.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  14. #178
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    The other way, how? The Royals chose Larkin, and the Reds talked them out of it? Or the Royals allowed the Reds to choose, and the Reds chose Larkin?
    the way that I heard it was that the Reds FO preferred to keep Larkin, and tried to make it clear that he wasn't the available one. but it wasn't unanimous in the Reds' FO. Had the Royals said Larkin or no deal, then they might have gotten him. Perhaps it would have cost them more to get a Larkin deal done.

    I never heard if Royals preferred Stillwell, or settled on him.

  15. #179
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    the way that I heard it was that the Reds FO preferred to keep Larkin, and tried to make it clear that he wasn't the available one. but it wasn't unanimous in the Reds' FO. Had the Royals said Larkin or no deal, then they might have gotten him. Perhaps it would have cost them more to get a Larkin deal done.

    I never heard if Royals preferred Stillwell, or settled on him.
    However it went down I am happy with the outcome!!
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  16. #180
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    Re: Here we go...Haren

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I wonder if Jackson was being devalued not just because of his control problems but because he was the third most effective out of the trio with Saberhagen and Gubicza

    I think that was it. And KC had an actual surplus of effective lefty starters. Yes, you heard me right, a surplus.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle


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