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Thread: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

  1. #16
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    For those who might not be aware, here BP's spits:

    vR 06: 436 PA, .268/.315/.429
    vR 07: 480 PA, .262/.310/.428

    VL 06: 151 PA, .299/.351/.423
    vR 07: 222 PA, .341/.378/.606

    Phillips has earned the right to hit higher in the order versus lefties. Versus righties, he needs to learn how to get on base before hitting any higher than 6th.
    vs. L
    1B Votto
    2B Phillips
    RF Griffey
    LF Dunn
    3B EE
    CF Bruce
    SS Gonzalez
    C Ross

    vs. R
    1B Votto
    3B EE
    RF Griffey
    LF Dunn
    2B Phillips
    CF Bruce
    SS Gonzalez
    C Ross

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  3. #17
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    Phillips makes too many outs for my liking. Dude had what everyone considers a phenomenal year last year, and he still had a PA/Out ratio of 1.39. Edwin Encarnacion had what many consider to be a bit of a disappointing year, and he had a PA/Out ratio of 1.53, which is considerably better than Phillips' 1.39.

    Phillips is a decent power hitter, especially for his position, and offers a different look on the bases with his speed. But I just don't want that ratio of outs anywhere near the top of the lineup.

    Fewer outs ===> more baserunners ===> more runs, even if it isn't in the most flashy way.
    I understand the logic, however I would expect BP to improve his discipline allbeit ever so slightly unless of course Dusty talks him out of it (could be). That said if BP isn't up there Votto perhaps shouldn't be either, I dunno his PA/OUT % for when he was up but it's too early to tell whether or not he could do that. And although he is a good baserunner/stealer for his position he doesn't have the potential of a Bruce on the basepaths.

    Frankly I would use Hopper myself (although I know how people feel about him) but that can only work if Griffey were moved to another team.
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  4. #18
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    I will add this ...

    If the lineup starts off with Votto, Encarnacion, Dunn, Griffey (or Griffey, Dunn), the serious potential exists that there could be four straight .370+ on-base percentages batting in front of Jay Bruce and Brandon Phillips.

    That would result in some serious run scoring.
    Yep, and batting with guys on base would play right into the hands of BP's and Bruce's hitting styles.

  5. #19
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Yep, and batting with guys on base would play right into the hands of BP's and Bruce's hitting styles.
    But BP is fast and therefore a run SCORER and not a run DRIVERINER. And, Dunn the opposite. I'm sure Dusty will be happy to explain this to us.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 12-12-2007 at 07:13 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  6. #20
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    I understand the logic, however I would expect BP to improve his discipline allbeit ever so slightly unless of course Dusty talks him out of it (could be). That said if BP isn't up there Votto perhaps shouldn't be either, I dunno his PA/OUT % for when he was up but it's too early to tell whether or not he could do that. And although he is a good baserunner/stealer for his position he doesn't have the potential of a Bruce on the basepaths.

    Frankly I would use Hopper myself (although I know how people feel about him) but that can only work if Griffey were moved to another team.
    The absolute last thing I would expect out of Brandon Phillips is to improve his plate discipline. He had 115 more plate appearances in 2007 than he did in 2006, and he actually took two fewer walks.

    Brandon Phillips is the epitome of a Mr. Swing-at-Everything. Nothing I have ever seen from him indicates that will ever change.

    Votto's PA/Out ratio in Louisville last season was 1.54; with the Reds in September it was 1.56. It wouldn't shock me if Joey Votto posts an on-base percentage more than 20 points higher than Brandon Phillips in 2008. Wouldn't shock me one bit.
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    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    But BP is fast and therefore a run SCORER and not a run DRIVERINER. And, Dunn the opposite. I'm sure Dusty will be happy to explain this to us.
    I nominate RedsManRick to pen the next edition of Baseball for Dummies.
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  8. #22
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    I nominate RedsManRick to pen the next edition of Baseball for Dummies.
    Thanks VP, but no way could I possibly top the master.

    http://www.amazon.com/Baseball-Dummi.../dp/0764552341
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  9. #23
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    The absolute last thing I would expect out of Brandon Phillips is to improve his plate discipline. He had 115 more plate appearances in 2007 than he did in 2006, and he actually took two fewer walks.

    Brandon Phillips is the epitome of a Mr. Swing-at-Everything. Nothing I have ever seen from him indicates that will ever change.

    Votto's PA/Out ratio in Louisville last season was 1.54; with the Reds in September it was 1.56. It wouldn't shock me if Joey Votto posts an on-base percentage more than 20 points higher than Brandon Phillips in 2008. Wouldn't shock me one bit.
    All true, but I'd still like to make him try. What can I say? I'm from the seventies, I like a fast lead off guy, even if it's not a good idea. Plus think of all the double plays he won't hit into!
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

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    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    The absolute last thing I would expect out of Brandon Phillips is to improve his plate discipline. He had 115 more plate appearances in 2007 than he did in 2006, and he actually took two fewer walks.

    Brandon Phillips is the epitome of a Mr. Swing-at-Everything. Nothing I have ever seen from him indicates that will ever change.

    Votto's PA/Out ratio in Louisville last season was 1.54; with the Reds in September it was 1.56. It wouldn't shock me if Joey Votto posts an on-base percentage more than 20 points higher than Brandon Phillips in 2008. Wouldn't shock me one bit.
    Well that's true, but he did improve his OBP%. And guy's like Vlad and Tony Gwynn never walked a whole lot but their OBP% was always pretty high.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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  11. #25
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Thanks VP, but no way could I possibly top the master.

    http://www.amazon.com/Baseball-Dummi.../dp/0764552341
    Dusty Baker is a guy you can build around for several seasons because his hitters are clutch hitters and proven winners. He teaches hitters to battle when at the plate and to be aggressive so they can drive in runners in scoring position. This is what being a manager of proven veterans is all about. What the Reds are going to need if they're going to make a postseason run in 2008 is a well-rounded group providing veteran leadership, and Dusty Baker will help the Reds bring that sort of necessary leadership to win. Dusty's teams have all the important intangibles.

    Holding off the reloading Cubs and young Brewers won't be easy, but the difference between the Reds, Cubs, and Brewers is that Dusty Baker knows how to win. He manages winners. He's been in the postseason before and won the National League Pennant in 2002. He knows that when the game is on the line, the little things become important, such as hitting the ball to the right side of the infield to move runners along.

    I wouldn't worry about the Reds in the National League Central. Dusty Baker managed teams have shown they can hold their composure on the field, and that will separate them from the Cubs and inexperienced Brewers.

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    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Well that's true, but he did improve his OBP%. And guy's like Vlad and Tony Gwynn never walked a whole lot but their OBP% was always pretty high.
    One of the big differences between Phillips and Vlad is that while they both like to swing the bat at everything pitched their way, Vlad does it much more successfully. Vlad is probably one of the best "bad ball" hitters I have ever seen.

  13. #27
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Cyclone, if you were trying to channel Joe, you missed about 27 "consistent"s.

    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  14. #28
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Well that's true, but he did improve his OBP%. And guy's like Vlad and Tony Gwynn never walked a whole lot but their OBP% was always pretty high.
    Let's try and keep Gwynn out of this debate, he's a once every 75 year type of player, a freak.

    Code:
    ALL LEAGUES & TEAMS
    ALL YEARS
    ALL POSITIONS
    AVERAGE >= .300
    
    
    1    Ty Cobb                  1906-28   23   
    2    Tony Gwynn               1983-01   19   
    3    Dan Brouthers            1881-96   16   
    T4   Cap Anson                1876-90   15   
    T4   Willie Keeler            1892-06   15   
    T4   Honus Wagner             1899-13   15   
    T4   Rod Carew                1969-83   15   
    T8   Rogers Hornsby           1919-31   13   
    T8   Stan Musial              1946-58   13   
    T8   Ted Williams             1946-58   13

  15. #29
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Well that's true, but he did improve his OBP%. And guy's like Vlad and Tony Gwynn never walked a whole lot but their OBP% was always pretty high.
    Phillips' batting average was 12 points higher, he was hit by six more pitches, and he had one fewer sacrifice fly. That's why his on-base percentage was a few ticks higher.

    Vlad's a hack, but gets pitched around enough and has enough plate discipline to lay off really BAD pitches that he'll still draw 60 walks a year when added into his intentional walks. Phillips would have to nearly double his total to reach that.

    Tony Gwynn was just a freak of nature who batted .338 lifetime.
    Last edited by Cyclone792; 12-12-2007 at 07:38 PM.
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  16. #30
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: If Hamilton is traded, who hits leadoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Cyclone, if you were trying to channel Joe, you missed about 27 "consistent"s.

    Damn, I knew I was forgetting something ...

    I'm sure we can fit 27 consistents in there though.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.


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