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Thread: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

  1. #46
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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Have you ever actually looked at Chris Capuano's numbers?
    I've had him on my fantasy team a few times.

    I'm not willing to toss down quality talent on the belief that 2007 was an anamoly.

    Roughly 5IP per start, walk-rate way up, ERA way up. Pass. That's replacement level performance you can get out of the Bobby Livingstons of the world.
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  3. #47
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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by red-in-la View Post
    Then they are going to continue to be the Cincinnati Reds.....small market team that survives on the fringes. Ever since Barry Larkin this franchise has had the disease that causes the players to dictate the direction the franchise takes.

    Now it is Jay Bruce....through no fault of his own I am sure (other than being talented). NO SINGLE PLAYER should ever be more important than the team's ability to compete.....to compete with the best 25 players playing positions that are best for the TEAM.

    If Jay Bruce keeps this franchise from fielding a less than embarrassing rotation, then he hurts the franchise instead of helping it.

    For the first time in a long time (since Bob Howsam in MHO) the Reds have a CHANCE....just a CHANCE to have the right 25 players. And what is killing that CHANCE is a prospect with little more than a year on minor league ball who now is supposed to be better than Ken Griffey Jr.

    When I hear that, I just remember that Chris Gruler was the next Tom Seaver.

    Except you are making ridiculous assumptions that unless the Reds trade for Haren, Bedard, Kazmir or Santana that they will lose more than they win, have no chance at making any type of playoff run and will not be even close to competitive.

    As for Bruce being compared to Chris Gruler.... not even in the same realm.

  4. #48
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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    I've had him on my fantasy team a few times.
    Well I guess that makes you quite the expert.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    I'm not willing to toss down quality talent on the belief that 2007 was an anamoly.

    Roughly 5IP per start, walk-rate way up, ERA way up. Pass. That's replacement level performance you can get out of the Bobby Livingstons of the world.
    First of all, what's quality talent? I'm not suggesting giving up any of the big 4 or Hamilton for him.

    Secondly, take a look at his peripherals. 2007 wasn't nearly as bad as you might think. He would most likely be the best starting pitcher on the Reds 2008 roster not named Harang or Arroyo.
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  5. #49
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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by red-in-la View Post
    Then they are going to continue to be the Cincinnati Reds.....small market team that survives on the fringes. Ever since Barry Larkin this franchise has had the disease that causes the players to dictate the direction the franchise takes.

    Now it is Jay Bruce....through no fault of his own I am sure (other than being talented). NO SINGLE PLAYER should ever be more important than the team's ability to compete.....to compete with the best 25 players playing positions that are best for the TEAM.

    If Jay Bruce keeps this franchise from fielding a less than embarrassing rotation, then he hurts the franchise instead of helping it.

    For the first time in a long time (since Bob Howsam in MHO) the Reds have a CHANCE....just a CHANCE to have the right 25 players. And what is killing that CHANCE is a prospect with little more than a year on minor league ball who now is supposed to be better than Ken Griffey Jr.

    When I hear that, I just remember that Chris Gruler was the next Tom Seaver.

    Just to get the hyperbole right, Gruler's curve was compared to Tom Seaver's by Johnny Bench, but no comparison was made to be the next Tom Terriffic that I am aware of. And, it may have been all that before his arm fell off. But Jay Bruce v. Chris Gruler is not even a comparable case in many ways, such as player v. pitcher, strike 1, barely has a professional career v. minor league offensive player of the year, strike 2, and I've not heard or seen statements of "better than Griffey," and I've seen a lot of Bruce hyperbole, but that one got by me, strike 3. Personally, I think bad organizations have to trade a player like Bruce rather than being able to say "no, thanks, that's too much for what I'm getting" and move on to another target.

  6. #50
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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Just to get the hyperbole right, Gruler's curve was compared to Tom Seaver's by Johnny Bench, but no comparison was made to be the next Tom Terriffic that I am aware of. And, it may have been all that before his arm fell off. But Jay Bruce v. Chris Gruler is not even a comparable case in many ways, such as player v. pitcher, strike 1, barely has a professional career v. minor league offensive player of the year, strike 2, and I've not heard or seen statements of "better than Griffey," and I've seen a lot of Bruce hyperbole, but that one got by me, strike 3. Personally, I think bad organizations have to trade a player like Bruce rather than being able to say "no, thanks, that's too much for what I'm getting" and move on to another target.
    The "better than Jr." was posted by another RZ'er who reported that one of Jr's coaches had said it.
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  7. #51
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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    good

    frankly, I suspect that Bruce is the logjam blocking trades for all of the available pitchers in baseball. No team can trade a big pitcher until they're certain that they couldn't have had Bruce. Oakland would love to see Bedard go someplace besides Cincy, thinking that the Reds would then have to blink.

    those teams are crazy not to go for Hamilton, IMO. And I'm happy if we can manage to hold onto both of them.

    Then you are happy to finish around 500 again for a couple of years. Will you be happy to see Bruce patrolling the OF sans a lot of the current core players in a few years?
    Whatever happened to your expression "dare to be great"?

    If teams are salivating over Bruce but don't care for Hamilton, then you trade Bruce and keep the undervalued Hamilton.

    I wonder if the people averse to trading Bruce under any circumstances think that the Reds got hosed by trading BJ Ryan for Juan Guzman..
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  8. #52
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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    I'm not sure the delays are on the Reds' side. The Baltimore FO is a many-headed monster that makes decisions on a Congressional timeline. They've missed out on free agents they wanted because they don't have a single person who can sign off on the deals. Angelos, plus his sons, plus Syd Thrift and a few others are part of the decision making process, along with MacPhail.
    I guess my point is that if the Reds say Bruce is untouchable, is there anyone that the A's and O's really want? Remember, it's a sellers market, and I think the Reds offer can easily be topped without Bruce.. Unless they are willing to do Homer and Votto or something like that.
    Personally, I give up Bruce and change before giving up Votto and one of Homer/Cueto...

    Even so, if the best the Reds offer is Homer and Votto, the A's and O's probably get a better deal elsewhere.

    There's two sellers now (if you exclude Sanatanna). There's maybe 6-8 buyers. Wayne can be stubborn, but the O's and A's can walk away. They have the leverage.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  9. #53
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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    and I've not heard or seen statements of "better than Griffey," and I've seen a lot of Bruce hyperbole, but that one got by me, strike 3. Personally, I think bad organizations have to trade a player like Bruce rather than being able to say "no, thanks, that's too much for what I'm getting" and move on to another target.
    In Red-in-la-la's defense, there's been plenty of people saying that Bruce in 2008 would be more valuable than Jr in 2008.

    There's been plenty saying that Bruce is a good bet to have many 900-1000 OPS seasons, gold glove CF, etc.

    There's been plenty of people saying that Bruce is so special, you don't trade him for anything.

    Those folks might be right, but Bruce has built up more hype than Dunn had as a prospect.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  10. #54
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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Will you be happy to see Bruce patrolling the OF sans a lot of the current core players in a few years?
    what core players?

    Bruce and Hamilton are the core players

  11. #55
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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by red-in-la View Post
    The "better than Jr." was posted by another RZ'er who reported that one of Jr's coaches had said it.
    Thats not even close to what the Bats manager said. This is the exact quote from Rick Sweet 'I had Griffey the first year he played and Jay Bruce is in that category in my opinion," said Sweet, 55. "I had Griffey when he was 18, Jay Bruce just turned 20. He has the potential. At that time, they're close to the same animal.'

  12. #56
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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post

    Those folks might be right, but Bruce has built up more hype than Dunn had as a prospect.
    He should. He is a much more complete prospect with a bat that is looking to be just as good or better to go with plus defense.

  13. #57
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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    what core players?

    Bruce and Hamilton are the core players
    Dunn, Phillips, ARroyo, Harang, Cordero, and Jr are the core players. These are the guys that we have a reasonable expectation of getting solid seasons from.

    EdE, Bruce, Votto, Coffey, and Hamilton are promising, but you have to actually accomplish something at the big leagues to be a core guy. Right now, Votto and Hamilton are close.

    Note, just because I put them on the non-core list doesn't mean they are useless or won't perform. But they shouldn't be expected to carry a heavy load in the next two years.

    Now, if the Reds were in 1997 mode and blowing up the whole team, then I agree.. Hamilton and the big 4 are untouchable and trade everyone else.

    But we clearly are not in rebuilding mode. Thank God, after seven years of putzing around, the Reds might finally be putting forth the effort to win. Let's hope Wayne has the guts to get a deal done. He's very lucky pitchers of the caliber of Bedard and Haren are even available. He snoozed and lost on Linecrum & Cane.
    He needs to get this deal done before someone else swoops in.
    I'm not sure Wayne can successfully pull off a deal where he has to give up something more valuable than Wily Mo Pena, but I hope he proves me wrong.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  14. #58
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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    I hate the word "core." The core is the players playing very well at any given moment.

  15. #59
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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    He should. He is a much more complete prospect with a bat that is looking to be just as good or better to go with plus defense.
    And time to cash that hype in, IMO.
    I know I'll never get you to agree with that, but I see a compelling analogy to the Stillwell - Jackson trade that was done.

    The experts say Bruce's best comp is Larry Walker. Walker was an awesome player, but if I'm the Reds, I trade Larry WAlker for a stud pitcher.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

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    Re: Fay Update (Time for a new Bedard thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Dunn, Phillips, ARroyo, Harang, Cordero, and Jr are the core players.
    Harang's a core player; Philips is arguable.


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