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Thread: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

  1. #46
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    You can bet he'll be under oath while speaking on Capitol Hill, although so was Palmiero...

    Exactly. As were the executives for the cigarette companies who lied under oath to Congress.
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  3. #47
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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    What further evidence are you waiting for? Do you want the trainer's girlfriend or someone to say he injected Roger?
    What about a paper trail. Proof that he purchased steroids/HGH. It existed for almost all of the others named. It exsisted for Barry Bonds. How about a failed drug test?

    I tend not to come to an absolute judgement on someone based on the accusation of one other person.

    For the record, I was not surprised that he was named in this report, and that Clemens might have used performance enhancing drugs. But I think that a lot of players did...a heck of a lot more than were outed by the Mitchell report.
    "The players make the manager, it's never the other way." - Sparky Anderson

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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by NJReds View Post
    What about a paper trail. Proof that he purchased steroids/HGH. It existed for almost all of the others named. It exsisted for Barry Bonds. How about a failed drug test?

    I tend not to come to an absolute judgement on someone based on the accusation of one other person.

    For the record, I was not surprised that he was named in this report, and that Clemens might have used performance enhancing drugs. But I think that a lot of players did...a heck of a lot more than were outed by the Mitchell report.

    1) They didn't test for steroids at the time he was accused of doing it. No way you can fail a test if they don't test to begin with

    2) If there's a paper trail, he's stupid. If they do find a paper trail then he does what Hal Morris did. Say that he didn't actually use the stuff.

    My point is there's not going to be any smoking gun here. There's no video of him pulling down his pants and the camera zooming in on the fine print on the vial before the needle gets shoved you know where.

    I'll grant you he may be innocent...not a big chance but albeit a chance. I'll believe Roger if he storms into Capitol Hill and totally denies it under oath and he sues somebody over this. All the while I'll be hoping someone asks him "why didn't you talk to Sen. Mitchell?"

  5. #49
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

    And if that is the same standard that sportswriters use when voting for the hall, then the HOF is a bigger joke than gold glove awards.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    2) If there's a paper trail, he's stupid. If they do find a paper trail then he does what Hal Morris did. Say that he didn't actually use the stuff.
    Then most of the guys on this report were stupid. Of course, they only interviewed two trainers from NY. Not surprising considering the investigation was conducted by a board member of the Boston Red Sox.

    I'll grant you he may be innocent...not a big chance but albeit a chance. I'll believe Roger if he storms into Capitol Hill and totally denies it under oath and he sues somebody over this. All the while I'll be hoping someone asks him "why didn't you talk to Sen. Mitchell?"
    I heard that Mitchell invited players to talk, but only said that they were going to be named in the report, but were not informed why they were going to be named in the report. That's why most turned down the opportunity.

    I understand and respect your point. I do not respect the media that is running with the story without conducting their own investigations.
    "The players make the manager, it's never the other way." - Sparky Anderson

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    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by NJReds View Post
    Then most of the guys on this report were stupid. Of course, they only interviewed two trainers from NY. Not surprising considering the investigation was conducted by a board member of the Boston Red Sox.



    I heard that Mitchell invited players to talk, but only said that they were going to be named in the report, but were not informed why they were going to be named in the report. That's why most turned down the opportunity.

    I understand and respect your point. I do not respect the media that is running with the story without conducting their own investigations.

    I don't understand what you mean by "running with the story"? The story is Clemens was mentioned in 8 pages of this report and the story is how Clemens has responded to it. Both are news. I don't understand where you see a problem.

    Once again, if I'm innocent, and Sen. Mitchell asks to talk to me I talk and answer all his questions. If I'm guilty of something then I refuse.

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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Once again, if I'm innocent, and Sen. Mitchell asks to talk to me I talk and answer all his questions. If I'm guilty of something then I refuse.
    That works great for you. As a standard to judge quilt/innocence of others, it doesn't work at all.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  9. #53
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

    This is a poor example. Pete is still paying the price for lying about this for over a decade.
    The only point I was making is that coming clean- though virtuous in some cases- by no means gives the guilty a pass to escape punishment.

    Rose gets hammered more harshly because of his denials lasting years, no doubt.

    But had he admitted to gambling early on, his fate would have been the same.

    In that sense, a harsh rejection is no worse than any other.
    If you're watchin' a parade, make sure you stand in one spot, don't follow it, it never changes. And if the parade is boring, run in the opposite direction, you will fast-foward the parade. --Mitch Hedberg

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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I don't understand what you mean by "running with the story"? The story is Clemens was mentioned in 8 pages of this report and the story is how Clemens has responded to it. Both are news. I don't understand where you see a problem.
    It's fun to run cute headlines saying that Roger "took it in the butt" ... but except for a couple guys from the San Francisco Examiner who broke the BALCO story, no sports reporters ever did any investigative piece on the steroid issue that I know of.

    The media (at least the media here in NY and the national guys) couldn't wait for a list of names to broadcast. So much so that they jumped the gun and went with a "rumored" list that was wrong.


    I think the Mitchell Report was a $20 million rumor mill that shamed a few players that bought from two NY clubhouse guys. I think it's value has been greatly overstated and it barely scratched the surface of the problem.

    Of course, Roger is Mitchell's big trophy. Probably got him a big toast at the Boston Red Sox Christmas party.

    Once again, if I'm innocent, and Sen. Mitchell asks to talk to me I talk and answer all his questions. If I'm guilty of something then I refuse.
    Why. If Roger is lying now, why wouldn't he lie to Sen. Mitchell just to get his name out of the report?
    "The players make the manager, it's never the other way." - Sparky Anderson

  11. #55
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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial


  12. #56
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

    From Schilling's essay:

    Scream all you want about the testing program in MLB but there isn’t a test in existence that can identify the the presence of HGH with any amount of accuracy.
    Marion Jones passed in the neighborhood of 150 drug tests.
    If you're watchin' a parade, make sure you stand in one spot, don't follow it, it never changes. And if the parade is boring, run in the opposite direction, you will fast-foward the parade. --Mitch Hedberg

  13. #57
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    Marion Jones passed in the neighborhood of 150 drug tests.

    You're right and Schilling is right. But at least Jones was tested all those times. You can probably count on your fingers the number of times Barry Bonds was tested. That's the thing that bugs people the most about HGH is that there is no testing for it. I think that is what bugged fans the most about MLB is that they didn't have testing until recently. Myself and others have been screaming, "Well what about the NFL?" At least the NFL has had steroid testing in place for several years. and they actually catch players. That's why the public is so accepting of the NFL's alleged steroid usage. Perhaps what MLB needs to do is get the first urine based HGH test there is - no matter how inaccurate it is - and institute it. Then they can say that they are at least testing for it. But that will never fly because th union will insist - and rightfully so - on the test being extremely accurate. Of course it still may be more accurate and credible than the Mitchell Report may end up being.
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  14. #58
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    1) I'll grant you he may be innocent...not a big chance but albeit a chance. I'll believe Roger if he storms into Capitol Hill and totally denies it under oath and he sues somebody over this. All the while I'll be hoping someone asks him "why didn't you talk to Sen. Mitchell?"
    I ahve mentioned it before... have a 3rd party (someone like me or you) find 3 companies that administer lie detector tests (don't want anyone being paid off before the test is given). If you are innocent, then take the tests and show the world the results. Innocence and the right to sue all wrapped up in a few simple tests that take a few minutes each.

    Simple. So simple that any dummy (even me) can think of it. Why not do it?
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

  15. #59
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

    Silent no more eh? Did some of you really think he'd run out to a mic ten minutes after the report came out?


    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/27/sp...ss&oref=slogin

    December 27, 2007
    Clemens’s Legal Team Adds Private Investigators
    By DUFF WILSON and MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT

    Roger Clemens’s lawyer has hired private investigators to try to challenge the credibility of Brian McNamee, the trainer who told federal agents and former Senator George J. Mitchell that he had injected Clemens with steroids and human growth hormone, a lawyer familiar with the matter said Wednesday.

    The investigators may have a tape of McNamee contradicting what he said about Clemens, the lawyer added, although it was unclear whether the tape predated McNamee’s interviews for the Mitchell report on performance-enhancing drugs in baseball. The lawyer was granted anonymity because he was not authorized to talk about the case.

    Clemens’s lawyer, Rusty Hardin, said in an interview late Wednesday that Mitchell had failed to interview some key people who know Clemens and McNamee, who was Clemens’s personal trainer for years. Asked about the use of private investigators or the existence of a tape, Hardin said he would not discuss specifics.

    Hardin also drew parallels between the Mitchell report, which named about 90 current and former players in connection with the use of performance-enhancing drugs, and the tactics used by Senator Joseph R. McCarthy more than half a century ago.

    “Our response to all this is that Senator Mitchell’s investigation was unbiased and objective,” McNamee’s lawyer, Earl Ward, said Wednesday. “I don’t think you’re going to get the same degree of objectivity from Roger’s camp.”

    Ward said he spoke with McNamee and that they had no knowledge of private investigators or of a tape. He said he would not be surprised if Clemens’s investigators were talking with clubhouse personnel — including trainers and massage therapists — who worked with the Toronto Blue Jays and the Yankees when Clemens and McNamee were with those teams.

    Ward also said federal authorities, who went with McNamee when he spoke to Mitchell three times under threat of prosecution if he lied, had already thoroughly vetted McNamee. He also noted that Clemens’s friend and former teammate Andy Pettitte had admitted to using growth hormone, as McNamee stated he did in his interviews with Mitchell’s investigators.

    Hardin first revealed in an interview Tuesday night that he and other lawyers working for his firm had begun their own investigation into McNamee’s allegations. Hardin said they had found many individuals who had not spoken with Mitchell’s investigators but who were around Clemens from 1998 to 2001, the period in which McNamee has linked Clemens to the use of performance-enhancing drugs. It was during this period that Clemens and McNamee were together on the Blue Jays, then the Yankees.

    “We are convinced the conclusions in Mitchell’s report are wrong and are investigating the findings ourselves,” Hardin said. “At this stage, we have uncovered a lot of logical people who we thought Mitchell was going to talk to but never talked to him or his investigators.”

    As for the comparison to Senator McCarthy, Hardin said: “There are certain standards that must be employed to name someone. We learned 60 years ago the lasting effect that has. Didn’t we have stuff 60 years ago in which allegations that someone told a Senate committee tainted people? I am very uncomfortable with that atmosphere.”

    The Clemens team is walking a fine line because attacks on McNamee’s or Mitchell’s credibility could raise questions with either federal authorities or Congress. The federal authorities could seek to question Clemens directly, and even though not under oath, he would be in legal jeopardy if he did not answer truthfully. Likewise, a Congressional committee could subpoena Clemens to testify under oath if the perception grows that Clemens is undermining Mitchell, who conducted his investigation partly to satisfy Congress.

    So far, the United States attorney’s office in California, which monitored Mitchell’s interviews with McNamee, has not reacted to Clemens’s contradiction of McNamee’s statements.

    Meanwhile, Mitchell, through a spokesman, declined to comment Wednesday.

    Ward, McNamee’s lawyer, said federal authorities had already determined that his client is credible. “There’s nothing new in Brian’s background that Clemens or his folks don’t know about,” Ward said.

    McNamee has declined all interview requests. “He’s hoping for a normal life with his family,” Ward said. “He wishes that it all had never happened. His life has been in such a state of disarray right now.”

    Ward said that during the time McNamee injected Clemens with the banned substances, he did not tell anyone about it. Contemporaneous statements to others can be used in legal settings to corroborate circumstantial evidence. On the other hand, a pattern of dishonesty can be used in the same settings to discredit an allegation.

    The most damaging incidents in McNamee’s background, Ward said, were instances of lying to journalists for years to protect Clemens and a 2001 case in Florida in which McNamee was accused but not charged with sexual battery and with giving a date-rape drug to a woman. That investigation was closed because of what a Florida prosecutor called “insufficient physical and corroborative evidence.”

    Kirk Radomski, a former Mets clubhouse attendant who provided drugs to McNamee, told Mitchell that McNamee had never explicitly told him that he gave drugs to Clemens, Pettitte or their former Yankee teammate Chuck Knoblauch. Radomski told Mitchell that McNamee asked him what substances to use for pitchers and dropped hints after good performances by the players by making statements like “he’s on the program now.”

    Hardin, Clemens’s lawyer, said Clemens planned to meet with members of the news media Jan. 6, the same night an interview with Mike Wallace is scheduled to air on CBS’s “60 Minutes.”

    Hardin said the interview with Wallace — a self-described friend of Clemens’s and a frequent guest in the owner’s suite at Yankee Stadium — was scheduled to take place this week at Clemens’s home in Katy, Tex.

  16. #60
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Merged: Clemens' Silence / Clemens' Denial

    Hiring investigators to investigate himself is OJ-esque...


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