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Thread: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

  1. #1
    Ya can't teach speed... Triples's Avatar
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    Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    All the talk about trading the fab 4/5; going after an ace pitcher; etc, etc, gets me thinking about how will the Reds ever be able to create sustainable long terms success given free agency, arbitration and the fact that Cincy is a relatively small market (eg they can't compete with NY, Chicago, LA, etc.) So how can a small market team like the reds sustain long term success. It appears they are the verge of being a very good team. If folks like Bailey, Cueto, Bruce, Hamilton and Votto (along with a few other lesser names) come through the Reds could be a very very good baseball club. But how can they sustain that talent level. They will not have the money to keep all those players once they reach free agency and they can't afford to go out and buy players to fill holes quickly. The key in my mind it to keep the minors chock full of high quality talent. These would be my sugesstions, most of which will fly in the face of old school baseball.

    1.) Find and hire the very best scouts in the business. Pay them double what they would otherwise make with other clubs so they'll stick around (they don't make sh*** so it wouldn't add significant amount of money to the expense side of the balance sheet) While they're at it, treat them with some dignity and respect. Scouts are still the guys that have to identify prospects in order to keep the pipeline full of top quality young players to fill the holes when the current group of studs leave becasue they can make a lot more money in free agency. We need to find those diamonds in the rough so to speak, the 5-15 rounders that won't require million dollar signing bonuses...remember we're a small market club without a $100 million payroll.

    2.) Hire a whole staff of stat heads to supplement what the scouts bring to the table.

    3.) Hire someone who can keep the people in #1 and #2 from killing each other and can respect and make sense of what each has to say.

    4,) 1-3 identify the players, now the pipeline if full. Now, find the best minor league coaches to develop these players. Guys that have a passion for teaching young players how to play the game and to realize their potential. Not just coaches that have been around the game for 30 years becasue they don't have anything else they know how to do. Pay them double what they would make elsewhere to keep them around too. Minor league coaches and managers don't make sh*** either so paying them more doesn't increase the expenses much either. They're torn away from their families for 10 months out of the year, make accomodations so that can be mitigated to some degree. Coaches are human too; if they're happy they'll work harder and be more passionate about they're work which will translate into better trained players.

    5.) Create better living conditions for minor league players. AA players make on averagea about $1850 per month from which they have to pay all their normal living expenses, clubbie dues, union dues, bats, gloves, shoes, etc. I know it's a collectively bargained agreement so to speak...or at least its the "Uniform minor league contract". Changing salary levels would be tough without agreement from all the other major league clubs but that doesn't mean the Reds can't subsidize meals and housing. Maybe even hire a nutritionist to help the players eat better and sustain themselves better through a 142 game season. If the players are in better health they'll perform better. Old school baseball believes in letting the cream rise to the top naturally; the toughest survive so to speak. That's a bunch of bunk. Homer Bailey signed a $2.3 million signing bonus, he's living a lot higher off the hog than a 15th rounder that signed for $15 grand. The likilihood of a low round player surviving the grind for 4-6 years is diminished by the false ceiling baseball places on them. Given that the difference between a AA or AAA guy and a Major leaguer is so slight, I believe there are a lot of guys who never reach their potential because they can't afford to do the things they need to do to reach that next level.


    All of this isn't intended to be a commentary on how baseball operates, although it probably sounds like it. Its intended to point out that a club like the Reds could do some things differently within their economic restraints, with their minor league system that could help them sustain long term success at the major league level. It would just require some out of the box thinking.

    So there...someone tell me I'm full of ....whatever.
    Last edited by Triples; 12-20-2007 at 01:21 PM.
    Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona. Not all holes, or games, are created equal. ~George Will


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  3. #2
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    Re: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    Outstanding post. I think you make a lot of sense.

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    Re: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    I support this post. Seriously, the Reds need to stop looking to make huge trades until the farm system shows clear sustainability. This club needs to live and die by the farm system, and trade off vets for more prospects or other vets to patch holes. We need to have a farm system that has an image like Los Angeles. An image that can sell a lower level prospect for more than they're worth because it's coming from a proven, quality farm system.

    Once we start winning by that method, the fans will come and augment the payroll. Then we can afford some better free agents.

    But I'm no GM, so I really know nothing.

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    Re: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    Absolutely agree about the current state of the farm system. It's wonderful to see it improving, but, as yet, it has produced very little. It has not proven itself sustainable, and the current GM has, in my view, not yet proven himself capable of drafting any major league talent. This is not to say he won't; in fact, I think he will. But it's important not to allow some false enthusiasm to get in the way of our evaluations.

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    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    Quote Originally Posted by podgejeff_ View Post
    We need to have a farm system that has an image like Los Angeles. An image that can sell a lower level prospect for more than they're worth because it's coming from a proven, quality farm system.
    I've seen this hurt in the opposite direction, however. The other team is skeptical that there is a reason that we are willing to let the player we are trading go because it appears we always know what we are doing with our prospects...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

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    Re: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    It's wonderful to see it improving, but, as yet, it has produced very little. It has not proven itself sustainable, and the current GM has, in my view, not yet proven himself capable of drafting any major league talent. .
    Improving the farm and improving the major league roster are not mutually exclusive goals. In fact, a farm system that doesn't leverage its perceived talent is almost certain unsustainable.

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    Re: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    Quote Originally Posted by Triples View Post
    A
    (they don't make sh*** so

    Minor league coaches and managers don't make sh*** either so
    FYI, masking profanity might get you dinged here on RedsZone. It's in the by-laws, so you better be careful.

  9. #8
    Ya can't teach speed... Triples's Avatar
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    Re: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    Quote Originally Posted by BLEEDS View Post
    FYI, masking profanity might get you dinged here on RedsZone. It's in the by-laws, so you better be careful.
    Ooops my bad. Thanks for the heads up. I apologize if it offended anyone. I should have said; Scouts don't make diddly squat.
    Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona. Not all holes, or games, are created equal. ~George Will


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    Re: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    I've seen this hurt in the opposite direction, however. The other team is skeptical that there is a reason that we are willing to let the player we are trading go because it appears we always know what we are doing with our prospects...
    This is true. But I think that's a necessary evil we have to face as a small market club with a good farm system. The flip side of that is that if your farm system perenially sucks, then all teams think your prospects are probably worthless, even the ones that have the talent to net you a star player in a trade.


    Either way, I'd rather have a farm system giving us replacements on a regular basis that are homegrown and can be appreciated by the fans.

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    Re: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    Quote Originally Posted by podgejeff_ View Post
    Either way, I'd rather have a farm system giving us replacements on a regular basis that are homegrown and can be appreciated by the fans.
    HA!

    Phillips, Harang, and Arroyo were NOT homegrown and are loved by the fans.

    Adam Dunn WAS homegrown and he's hated.

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    Re: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    Quote Originally Posted by TN Red Fan View Post
    HA!

    Phillips, Harang, and Arroyo were NOT homegrown and are loved by the fans.

    Adam Dunn WAS homegrown and he's hated.
    True. Although I think that fits more along the lines of Cincinatti's appreciation for scrappy, all-out effort players and the perception of Dunn's laziness. Loads of strikeouts don't help his cause much either.

    Mind you I'm not saying Dunn is lazy at all, nor am I saying that he isn't a very valuable piece of the team. Just commenting on the way people see him. I can definitely see how strikeouts, below average defense, and a perception of indifference can turn someone against a player making as much money as Dunn currently does.

  13. #12
    topsyt
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    Re: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    podgejeff_: As to your initial post, I absolutely agree. Would appear to be plain old common sense given current market conditions in MLB.

    And that may be the problem-does common sense and Reds Mgmt. go hand in hand.

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    Member SMcGavin's Avatar
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    Re: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    I agree with the basis of your post - invest in scouting, the draft, and minor leaguers. It's more cost-effective than going out and getting free agents. I wouldn't really even worry about position during the draft, just stockpile talent and you can trade it for what you need four or five years down the road.

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    Re: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    Platoons are the most underappreciated weapon in baseball.

    Focus on drafting and developing pitching, and generate offense with low-cost, platoon type players. You have to play the percentages. Hatteberg and Keppinger are an .870 OPS who we're paying what, $2 million? Griffey's a full-time .870 OPS who we're paying $9 million.

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    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: Sustainable Long Term Reds Success

    Quote Originally Posted by TN Red Fan View Post
    Platoons are the most underappreciated weapon in baseball.

    Focus on drafting and developing pitching, and generate offense with low-cost, platoon type players. You have to play the percentages. Hatteberg and Keppinger are an .870 OPS who we're paying what, $2 million? Griffey's a full-time .870 OPS who we're paying $9 million.
    couldn't agree more...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."


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