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Thread: Will Baker Impede Progress?

  1. #46
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    Quote Originally Posted by icehole3 View Post
    Ok, you want me to say it, you guys are very smart. You guys crunch the numbers better than anyone, youre all genius'. These numbers are the answers to everything. Hopper shouldnt been on the Reds last year he shouldnt even be playing professional ball, he's so lucky he should go buy some lottery tickets at Argosy.
    I don't even crunch the numbers 1/2 as well as others on this board, but thanks for the false praise. But, I never said Hopper shouldn't be playing professional ball.

    Hopper has a place on the Reds as a PR/4th OF/PH at best, nothing more. He's not a starting MLB OF, even for Kansas City or Baltimore or Tampa Bay or Pittsburgh. And he sure as heck shouldn't be a starting OF for the Cincinnati Reds.

    In my book, he was a career minor leaguer who made the most of his opportunity at the MLB level, but we shouldn't count on lightning to keep striking. A guy like Norris Hopper will always be one of those last guys cut in ST or the 25th man on a roster. That's his value.

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  3. #47
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    But High...he plays the game the right way!! he runs out to his spot in the outfield, he HUSTLES
    Go Gators!

  4. #48
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    MARTY LOVES HIM.

    That counts for ALOT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


  5. #49
    Member icehole3's Avatar
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    if someone beats him out in spring training his arse should go to the bench, but to just put him on the bench because someone else has the potential is nuts.

  6. #50
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    Quote Originally Posted by icehole3 View Post
    if someone beats him out in spring training his arse should go to the bench, but to just put him on the bench because someone else has the potential is nuts.
    I think Jay Bruce is sitting on the bench because of Norris Hopper is nuts, if Hopper "beats him out" in spring training or not.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  7. #51
    Member icehole3's Avatar
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    Bruce will not be sitting on any bench, if he is deemed not ready he goes to AAA. Why rush the guy, then his confidence is shattered, then every number cruncher in Redszone will be saying Bruce has a terrible OBP or OBM or whatever you call it.

  8. #52
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    Quote Originally Posted by icehole3 View Post
    Bruce will not be sitting on any bench, if he is deemed not ready he goes to AAA. Why rush the guy, then his confidence is shattered, then every number cruncher in Redszone will be saying Bruce has a terrible OBP or OBM or whatever you call it.


    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  9. #53
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    Quote Originally Posted by icehole3 View Post
    Bruce will not be sitting on any bench, if he is deemed not ready he goes to AAA. Why rush the guy, then his confidence is shattered, then every number cruncher in Redszone will be saying Bruce has a terrible OBP or OBM or whatever you call it.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  10. #54
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    Quote Originally Posted by icehole3 View Post
    Bruce will not be sitting on any bench, if he is deemed not ready he goes to AAA. Why rush the guy, then his confidence is shattered, then every number cruncher in Redszone will be saying Bruce has a terrible OBP or OBM or whatever you call it.
    I don't think we "number crunchers" will be too dismayed if Bruce starts off slowly in MLB. Every young hitter goes through ups and downs, and I for one will reserve judgment until Bruce is given a significant amount of ML at-bats. Also, FWIW, I don't consider myself a stat-head at all; I'm just open to well-reasoned arguments that help to explain to me how the game works.

    I'm not sure where you're getting all of this pent up antagonism towards people who are trying to explain their arguments to you. Quite a few of us have now offered our opinions backed by what we see as convincing evidence. No one has ever said you weren't entitled to your own view. However, we have yet to see you back up your argument that Hopper is a good leadoff hitter with anything more compelling than a "harumph."

    Look, I'd really like it if Hopper was one of those late-bloomer types who could post a .371 OBP out of the leadoff position next year. Frankly, it would make me a lot less worried about the lineup sans Josh Hamilton. However, as others have pointed out now multiple times as well, there is no evidence to suggest that Hopper can maintain that level of performance.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  11. #55
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    ......I'm just open to well-reasoned arguments that help to explain to me how the game works.....
    backed by what we see as convincing evidence.

    ....there is no evidence to suggest that Hopper can maintain that level of performance.
    'See' might be the operable word here. What we see and percive with our owns eyes can be either accepted or dismissed; it depends upon how much you trust your own judgement and experience. 'Evidence' is an extension of this depending upon what you choose to believe and what you disregard.

    In the case of Hopper I don't think anyone is argueing (including icehole) that he is the perfect leadoff hitter. He may or may not maintain that level of performance (i.e., he could get better) but, he may be the best we have given our current starting eight.

    While it's true that Norris' OBP was hit driven, the fact that his game is a little unorthodox helps him IMO. If defenses don't make changes he will continue to do what he has been doing and probably be successful. If defenses makes changes, say by drawing in the infield or making shifts in their alignment, then the very fact that Hopper doesn't hit a lot of fly balls will help him find the expanded holes in the 'D'.

    Should he be a 4th OFer? Ideally, but if Bruce doesn't win the OF job in ST then I think I can live with Hopper for a month or two. I think Bruce will respond well and, sometime before the All Star break, become a regualr in the Cincinnati OF. I just hope that he doesn't gain that position due to an injury to Jr. or Dunn.

    Rem

  12. #56
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boss-Hog View Post
    I know I'm in the minority, but I won't be that upset if we start the season with Freel/Hopper in CF while Bruce gets another month or so at AAA.
    I'm right there with ya' Boss. As I said before, I see the model for Bruce being the way the Astros brought along Hunter Pence last year. Give Bruce about 30 games to tear up AAA and bring him to Cincinnati so raring to go that he rips off his shirt and finally reveals that big red 'S' on his chest.

    Rem

  13. #57
    Member icehole3's Avatar
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    my kids do say I never smile


  14. #58
    Member icehole3's Avatar
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    Quote Originally Posted by remdog View Post
    'See' might be the operable word here. What we see and percive with our owns eyes can be either accepted or dismissed; it depends upon how much you trust your own judgement and experience. 'Evidence' is an extension of this depending upon what you choose to believe and what you disregard.

    In the case of Hopper I don't think anyone is argueing (including icehole) that he is the perfect leadoff hitter. He may or may not maintain that level of performance (i.e., he could get better) but, he may be the best we have given our current starting eight.

    While it's true that Norris' OBP was hit driven, the fact that his game is a little unorthodox helps him IMO. If defenses don't make changes he will continue to do what he has been doing and probably be successful. If defenses makes changes, say by drawing in the infield or making shifts in their alignment, then the very fact that Hopper doesn't hit a lot of fly balls will help him find the expanded holes in the 'D'.

    Should he be a 4th OFer? Ideally, but if Bruce doesn't win the OF job in ST then I think I can live with Hopper for a month or two. I think Bruce will respond well and, sometime before the All Star break, become a regualr in the Cincinnati OF. I just hope that he doesn't gain that position due to an injury to Jr. or Dunn.

    Rem
    what he said

  15. #59
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post

    that would make a great avatar for you Icehole3.

  16. #60
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Will Baker Impede Progress?

    'See' might be the operable word here. What we see and percive with our owns eyes can be either accepted or dismissed; it depends upon how much you trust your own judgement and experience. 'Evidence' is an extension of this depending upon what you choose to believe and what you disregard.
    Agreed, and thanks very much for your well-reasoned rejoinder. However, I would respond to you with a few more questions. If there were other evidence available about something you cared about, wouldn't you be curious what it was and what more it might (or might not) tell you? Don't you think that making a decision about something important (and by gosh, the Reds are important!) should be informed by the best available tools--or at least by a mix of different information that incorporates good old fashioned game-watching and more in-depth research?

    In the case of Hopper I don't think anyone is arguing (including icehole) that he is the perfect leadoff hitter. He may or may not maintain that level of performance (i.e., he could get better) but, he may be the best we have given our current starting eight.
    Well, I'm not sure what a "perfect" leadoff hitter would even be (a young Rickey Henderson, Tim Raines or Kenny Lofton?), and I didn't take anyone to be arguing that in the first place. In fact, I quoted icehole as saying that Hopper would be an "okay leadoff hitter" in my earlier post. What I am suggesting is that there is abundant evidence to suggest that Hopper will not continue that performance. That claim has been backed up nicely by a bunch of folks who work harder than I do to make good posts.

    While it's true that Norris' OBP was hit driven, the fact that his game is a little unorthodox helps him IMO. If defenses don't make changes he will continue to do what he has been doing and probably be successful. If defenses makes changes, say by drawing in the infield or making shifts in their alignment, then the very fact that Hopper doesn't hit a lot of fly balls will help him find the expanded holes in the 'D'.
    Hmmm. I don't know how unorthodox Hopper actually is. He seems to me like a lot of rather undisciplined, slap hitters who surface from time to time on ML rosters. Heck, when they are younger and better in the field, a lot of 'em get starting jobs for a long, long time--and then make millions of dollars more than they should because old school GM's and managers just decide to ignore statistical measures and go by what they "see" on the field. One of those managers, to our chagrin, has been Dusty Baker (see Womack, Tony; Pierre, Juan; Patterson, Corey...) There is also a real danger with these average-driven hitters because when they slump, they add almost nothing to the lineup at all.

    Should he be a 4th OFer? Ideally, but if Bruce doesn't win the OF job in ST then I think I can live with Hopper for a month or two. I think Bruce will respond well and, sometime before the All Star break, become a regualr in the Cincinnati OF. I just hope that he doesn't gain that position due to an injury to Jr. or Dunn.
    I suppose I'm okay with Hopper as a temporary place-holder. However, I worry that Baker's predelection for the type of player I've described above could easily lead to him getting way more at-bats than he should in 2008. And, in all probability, those at-bats will be taken away from a younger, much more productive player who could be out there helping the Reds do what we all hope they will do: win games.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013


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