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Thread: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

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    Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    Reds defense improved last year. Fielding percentage went from 979 to 984. I know that's not the only relevant stat, but it is an indicator. I think the infield got better with Gonzo and Kepp at shortstop and with EE's improvement.

    The outfield, however, remains defensively challenged with two offensive players, Dunn and Griff (at this stage), in the corners. I think getting a plus centerfielder is important. All the Fielding Independent stats being floated around show that Reds pitchers need more help from the defense.

    Cameron is the obvious guy for centerfield. If there's someone else I'm missing, I'm sure posters will say so, but I think the Reds would be helped enormously by a defensive centerfielder.

    Dickerson is another choice, but he doesn't seem to have a starting player's offensive credentials. Maybe as a backup.
    Last edited by Kc61; 12-25-2007 at 10:30 PM.

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    If we are looking for a good defensive centerfielder Mike Cameron is a BAD target. Defensively, he is barely average anymore.

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    Greatness In The Making RedLegSuperStar's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Reds defense improved last year. Fielding percentage went from 979 to 984. I know that's not the only relevant stat, but it is an indicator. I think the infield got better with Gonzo and Kepp at shortstop and with EE's improvement.

    The outfield, however, remains defensively challenged with two offensive players, Dunn and Griff (at this stage), in the corners. I think getting a plus centerfielder is important. All the Fielding Independent stats being floated around show that Reds pitchers need more help from the defense.

    Cameron is the obvious guy for centerfield. If there's someone else I'm missing, I'm sure posters will say so, but I think the Reds would be helped enormously by a defensive centerfielder.

    Dickerson is another choice, but he doesn't seem to have a starting player's offensive credentials. Maybe as a backup.
    Cameron might be a decent signing, but another could be Corey Patterson who might be cheaper and more of a run producer. Downside is he's another Lefty bat. His speed at the top of the lineup would be key as the Reds do not have a legitimate lead-off hitter out side of reserves Freel and Hopper.

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    Re: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    If we are looking for a good defensive centerfielder Mike Cameron is a BAD target. Defensively, he is barely average anymore.
    Then who? Crisp from the Red Sox in a trade? Who is out there that may be available?

    For all the talk about pitching, a guy who can get it in CF may help reduce the opposition's scoring just as much.

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    Greatness In The Making RedLegSuperStar's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    Just throwing this out there but Patterson does have ties with Baker as well..
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    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    Chip made a good point a few days ago when he floated the possibility of Juan Pierre being a potential target, especially considering his Dusty Baker ties.

    For my money, until Griff is gone, the smart play is an outfield of Dunn - Bruce - Griffey.
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    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    Just give Freel and Hopper the job for now, if we're playing for 2009 and beyond why worry about it.
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    Re: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLegSuperStar View Post
    Just throwing this out there but Patterson does have ties with Baker as well..
    Is he a free agent? Lefty doesn't bother me, he can platoon with Hopper or Freel.

    Actually, reading some of the stats from last year, Hopper rates fairly well out in center. Better than Patterson, perhaps.
    Last edited by Kc61; 12-25-2007 at 11:01 PM.

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    Re: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    This has been discussed heavily in other threads.

    Cameron's skills have dwindled considerably and he wants a two year contract. Additionally, he's suspended for the first 25 games of the season.

    I would not be at all surprised to see Jay Bruce spend the first month or so at L'ville and, assuming he has a solid time there, be brought to Cincinnati as his start of 15+ years in the bigs. Until that happens I'll be fine with Hopper/Freel/Dickerson.

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    Re: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    I am satisfied with a platoon of Hopper/Patterson but I really do not want Freel with the Reds this year...he is DANGEROUS, DANGEROUS ON THE FIELD (You have to sing that last part like you would "Maniac" from the movie FLASHDANCE)
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    Re: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan View Post
    I am satisfied with a platoon of Hopper/Patterson but I really do not want Freel with the Reds this year...he is DANGEROUS, DANGEROUS ON THE FIELD (You have to sing that last part like you would "Maniac" from the movie FLASHDANCE)

    It's a popular knock on Freel but the fact is that he's minimally dangerous to himself, just like any other 'hard-charger' on the field.

    As for being dangerous to other players, it's more of a platitude than reality. Things happen on a baseball field but no one is inherently dangerous in and of himself. The inherent danger is within the game itself.

    If you (general you, not just MartyFan) don't like Freel because of his OBP or lack of pop, his poor choice of times to steal or his mediocre arm, I understand. Those are good enough reasons. To dislike his play based on the idea that he's some sort of 'missle of distruction' on the field though is rather preposterous to me.

    Rem

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    Re: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    While Bruce profiles as an elite right-fielder, he's got some speed and can hold his own in center, a position he's played frequently in the Minors. I'd stick Bruce out in CF before I'd go for a Cameron. IMO, any options (platoons) we might have are better then a Cameron.
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    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    Freel had OBPs of .375, .371, and .363 in '04, '05, and '06 respectively. Freel had a poor OBP in 2007 but that looks like the exception until we see more evidence. I am not a huge Freel fan and my problem with him is that his frequent times picked-off and caught stealing remove him from the bases and subtract from his real value which was, until 2007, his ability to get on base. I was hoping for a trade last spring while his value was high, CFers were in short supply and Hamilton was busting loose, but now that dynamic has changed and, with Hamilton gone, Freel is probably more valuable on the roster than anything that he could bring in return. With the exception of Coco Crisp, Freel is probably a better stopgap option in CF at this point than anyone available outside the organization. He doesn't have great technique in CF, but his speed and his actual willingness to make the play (instead of pulling up and playing it on a hop like the former CFer seems to do on every play) make him somewhat effective. I do wish he was a little smarter out there.

    As far as the general topic of CF and OF defense goes, Jay Bruce has been a plus defender in CF up to this point and while his future may lie in RF as his body thickens over the next few years and the Hall of Famer in RF rides off in the sunset, at this point he is better in CF than he is in RF and would do fine out there for 2008.

    I take defensive stats fairly lightly and am on record as not being a huge Hopper fan, but the stats showed him as a plus defender in CF in 2007 and my eyes told me he was better than I expected. I'm not a believer that he'll sustain his BA or OBP offensively, but his defense is a little better than adequate out there.

    I don't see the urgency in CF with Bruce and Freel on the roster, Hopper being more effective so far than expected and a plus plus defender in Chris Dickerson nearly ready to contribute in a limited role. I agree that a CF of the future needs to be found (though it could be Drew Stubbs in a couple years if his 2nd half of 2007 is really a maturation with the wooden bat and not simply a hot streak) but the Reds already have plenty of stopgaps in house. I also agree that the OF defense is awful, but IMO CF isn't really the problem. The problem starts in RF with the worst defensive OF that I can remember seeing play and is compounded in LF (where poor defense is kind of the norm) with Dunn and his sometimes clumsy play. I understand that a great CFer can make everyone a little better, but the improvement will be minimal until at least one of the corners is upgraded significantly (and average would be a significant upgrade especially in RF IMO).

    The Reds primary need is still starting pitching until proven otherwise and I wouldn't expend resources for a CF stopgap who probably isn't much better than internal options unless these resources amount to nothing more than spare parts. I wouldn't mind seeing a deal for Coco Crisp but I wouldn't trade any of the young pitching for him. I wouldn't mind Cameron but its more because I think his RH power would play well in GABP and would help balance th line-up but I don't think he'll make a huge improvement to the defense. I'm just not sure he's all that much better than what is in house. Actually Bruce may be a better defender out there in 2008 than anyone being discussed and I don't realy like the idea of bringing some one in to block him. The dream would be to sign a Cameron, stick Bruce in RF and trade Griffey to an AL team looking for a LH LF/DH with some power (Cleveland? The White Sox?) for salary relief and a pitcher for the mix (no sure things back for Griffey IMO). But Griffey isn't going anywhere yet. At least not until Baker gets to watch him day in and day out and realizes what a poor defender he is and maybe not even then unless the Reds are hopelessly out of it.

    Beyond pitching, I think a good catcher for 2009 and beyond is the most immediate need followed by a long term SS. OF is farther down the list IMO.
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    Re: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    mth123...I agree 100% with your post. Very good summation. In particular on Freel's value, the fact that his lower OPS seems to be an exception rather than a trend, and on his primary liability which is his over-aggressive base running. I remain a fan of Freel and prefer him over any option in CF not named Bruce. In fact, I think Cameron would be a waste of money when there are still holes in the rotation. I love the way the rotation is starting to shape up but there is still little depth. I'd rather spend the dollars on a starter via trade or FA. As long as Junior and Dunn man the corners the outfield defense is going to be a liability.

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    Re: Reds should sign Cameron or another defensive CFer

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLegSuperStar View Post
    Just throwing this out there but Patterson does have ties with Baker as well..
    Corey isn't a fan of Dusty. he complained loudly to the media when Dusty dropped him to 7th in the order while struggling and eventually benching him. Patterson has radically matured since then, but i doubt he has much of a good feeling for Dusty.
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