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View Poll Results: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

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  • Yes

    38 36.89%
  • No

    10 9.71%
  • He should be further evaluated this season

    55 53.40%
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Thread: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

  1. #31
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    WAY too early. Everyone was pretty giddy last offseason and look at the mess that was on the field every night.

    Let's see what happens...it is way too early.

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  3. #32
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Krivsky's drafts are enough for me to lean towards "No".

    Krivsky's ability to dumpster dive and find treasure has been enough for me to lean towards "Yes".

    Unfortunately, I think Drew Stubbs' development in 2008 will be the deciding factor for me. If Stubbs continues to struggle, I'm not sure I could forgive Krivsky for wasting the 2006 1st Round Draft pick.

  4. #33
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Krivsky's drafts are enough for me to lean towards "No".

    Krivsky's ability to dumpster dive and find treasure has been enough for me to lean towards "Yes".

    Unfortunately, I think Drew Stubbs' development in 2008 will be the deciding factor for me. If Stubbs continues to struggle, I'm not sure I could forgive Krivsky for wasting the 2006 1st Round Draft pick.
    Wow. You run a tight ship. Many, many great GM's have made bad first round picks on guys who didn't work out. Billy Beane, Jocketty, Shapiro, Epstein, all those guys have made bad picks at one point.

  5. #34
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    With seemingly nearly everyone behind the Francisco Cordero and Josh Hamilton-for-Edinson Volquez trade, it seems that everyone can agree that Wayne Krivsky has had a great year.
    I'd be careful equating perceived popular opinion with proof of competence.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  6. #35
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I'd be careful equating perceived popular opinion with proof of competence.
    Very true. A GM could make 10 moves in the offseason that look great. If they bomb in reality, then it doesn't matter how they looked in December.

  7. #36
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Wow. You run a tight ship. Many, many great GM's have made bad first round picks on guys who didn't work out. Billy Beane, Jocketty, Shapiro, Epstein, all those guys have made bad picks at one point.
    You're absolutely right that all GMs make bad picks, but Wayne Krivsky is 0 for 2. The exercise in futility is that in consecutive years Krivsky took position players when his franchise desperately needed quality pitching... quality pitching that was still on the board when the position players were selected. Stubbs and Mesoraco are just pawns in this. I have nothing against them personally or professionally, but rather what they represent from an ideological standpoint with the Reds' FO.

    Let's see what he does this June, but I wouldn't be surprised if he took an OF.

  8. #37
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    You're absolutely right that all GMs make bad picks, [b]but Wayne Krivsky is 0 for 2[/]. The exercise in futility is that in consecutive years Krivsky took position players when his franchise desperately needed quality pitching... quality pitching that was still on the board when the position players were selected. Stubbs and Mesoraco are just pawns in this. I have nothing against them personally or professionally, but rather what they represent from an ideological standpoint with the Reds' FO.

    Let's see what he does this June, but I wouldn't be surprised if he took an OF.
    0-for-2? In your opinion. But any sane person wouldn't write off a 19 year old kid after just 137 professional atbats. Writing him off already is one of the craziest things I've seen. Good grief.
    Last edited by OnBaseMachine; 12-26-2007 at 10:48 PM.

  9. #38
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf View Post
    I voted 'yes'. It's amazing how quickly people forget the state of the Reds immediately following 2005. The farm system was ranked by Baseball America as the worst in MLB. The starting rotation options were Aaron Harang, Brandon Claussen, Eric Milton, Dave Williams, Paul Wilson, and Elizardo Ramirez.

    The talent he has acquired has been significantly better than the talent he has let go. Heck, he has the Reds thinking they can compete (whereas a couple years ago, people were wondering if the Reds would still have a team in 20 years).

    There are too many reasons to list. I'll just say 'hell yes'.
    I agree with everything you state. Good post. But having said that, I still see no rush to extend him when we can exercise an option. There is still time to do that at a future date. I don't think he's going anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    As far as drafts go, I'm not sure how involved he is and not enough time has really passed to know.
    Bingo! Lets fire the guy and see how many other potential GM clients will be lining up to take the job seeing the unreasonable time frame (IMO) that's being imposed upon them to turn around an organization that has been poorly ran and mismanaged for the last decade top to bottom. Sure, we've seem previous GMs pick up a "piece" here and there; but they've been unable to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

    WE (the fans) know very little when it comes to the position of a GM. Though we like to assume that we do. I blame Rotisserie baseball, fantasy leagues, Baseball Prospectus, and a host of other organizations and websites, that, while making the study and research of the game of baseball more fun and approachable to millions of fans, has also deluded many into thinking they could be more competent GMs. A GM's job is far more comprehensive and takes far more involvement than looking at a Pythag or series of numbers and equations on a page.

    Changing GMs every 2-3 years because a certain segment of the fanbase thinks his philosophy/approach is too far out of line with theirs is ridiculous, and respectfully IMHO, almost a sign of arrogance.

    Forgive me if I sound kinda harsh; but that's the way I feel when I hear fans doing an evaluation/performance of a job they, realistically know very little about, and which none of us has (or could) ever hold. And especially when we are putting up polls.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    Not that I am calling for a change but is Walt Jocketty still available?
    If some are so concerned about Wayne and his handling of the draft and young player development, then look at Jocketty's record in this area. It is not his area of expertise.
    Last edited by GAC; 12-27-2007 at 05:44 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  10. #39
    You're being very UnDude. sonny's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Good post GAC. I can understand the desire to have this ship righted quickly, but like any good thing, it takes time. Building a contender, thickening up our farm system and developing our young ML ready talent is a process that takes a helluva long time, energy and good luck.

    While I don't think he's quite deserving of an extention jus yet, he's doing the job he has been hired for. Let's allow him to do it.
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  11. #40
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by sonny View Post
    Good post GAC. I can understand the desire to have this ship righted quickly, but like any good thing, it takes time. Building a contender, thickening up our farm system and developing our young ML ready talent is a process that takes a helluva long time, energy and good luck.

    While I don't think he's quite deserving of an extention jus yet, he's doing the job he has been hired for. Let's allow him to do it.
    Thank you. And that is all I'm saying. I'm not trying to pee off those fans that deeply enjoy statistical analysis (though I'm sure I will).

    I think it's a fun, great, sideline and hobby. It brings fans closer and more involved in the game of baseball. I thoroughly enjoy it myself, though I don't go as in depth as some do.

    I just think we take that knowledge, at times, and cross the line so to speak.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  12. #41
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    WE (the fans) know very little when it comes to the position of a GM. Though we like to assume that we do. I blame Rotisserie baseball, fantasy leagues, Baseball Prospectus, and a host of other organizations and websites, that, while making the study and research of the game of baseball more fun and approachable to millions of fans, has also deluded many into thinking they could be more competent GMs. A GM's job is far more comprehensive and takes far more involvement than looking at a Pythag or series of numbers and equations on a page.
    Any job is more complex than most people would believe when they're on the outside looking in. For example, while you completely discount the numerous people (some on this board) who use information available to make informed predictions about player performance, I understand that there is a huge difference between putting your job on the line with a decision or just talking about it online.

    Having said that, I don't buy the "it's a tough job" defense. Baseball execs are paid well. I don't think it's too much to ask that they understand and recognize the importance of various tested and verified methods of player valuation. Rheal Cormier comes instantly to mind as a guy that everyone and their brother pegged as ready for a blowup based on BABIP -- yet Krivsky charged blindly in to that deal. I also don't think its too much to ask that they recognize the importance of drafting the correct players most likely to help the team, not the guy who might-help-if-everything-goes-right. Most people had red-flagged Drew Stubbs due to his massive whiff rate in college and posted concerns about his ability to hit consistently with a wood bat while simultaneously pegging Tim Lincecum as "instant pitching, just add water." Both bits have turned out, thus far, to be true.

    There is boatloads of information out there for anyone smart enough and willing enough to make use of it -- if the fans are making good use of it, the GMs damn sure better use it.
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  13. #42
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    I think this is a no brainer yes. Heck, I even think the Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez for Gary Majewski and Billy Bray might work out. We had better players at both positions then Kearns and no one even mentioned the pick up of our new SS that is one of the best defensively in the game and also showed he can hit a little. GABP going to be good for him. Also, picked up Cody Ross for nothing, but then we lost him for nothing too! Also, gave Norris Hopper some good playing time and showed the kid can play and probably is better than Freel. If he goes out and gets one more deal done for a starter this team has a great shot to make some big noise in 08 so I'm a big YES on this question. Good one though. I haven't posted much lately.
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  14. #43
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    I said yes. I am a fan of WK. I truely believe there are a lot of people in this city who don't particularly like him because he doesn't talk openly about what he plans on doing. There are also people who don't agree with his plan and dislike him becaues of that. I think every GM makes moves that he thinks make the the organization better, whether it is at the major league level, minor league level, or financial level. Here are some of the positives that I see.

    1. Changed a stagnant organization over. He got rid of many scouts and personal development types, to much of the media's dismay, who had not performed for years.
    2. Took top prospects in Rookie and A ball and molded them into top prospects who are MLB ready. He also increased overall depth of the farm system.
    3. IMO he has spent money wisely in FA. He hasn't wasted money to this point. Cordero was given a big contract so we will see how that works out.
    4. He and his scouts have shown the ability to evaluate talent and has stuck by that evaluation.
    5. Baseball isn't football where fortunes can change overnight. He has resisted the knee jerk reaction that could set this franchise back another 10 years.

  15. #44
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    I don't think it's too much to ask that they understand and recognize the importance of various tested and verified methods of player valuation.....I also don't think its too much to ask that they recognize the importance of drafting the correct players most likely to help the team, not the guy who might-help-if-everything-goes-right.
    And what sure-fire methodology exists to insure you're drafting that "correct" player when dealing with 18-19 yr old kids? I really don't think one exists when it comes to evaluating high school age kids. No system/methodology is going to remove the "crapshoot" from the scenario IMO.

    Minimize it? Sure. But that is not the way I hear it presented on here a majority of the time. Over the years on this forum I've either been involved in, or simply stood back and observed, many many of these types of discussions on player critique. And I always shake my head when so many think they have it down to some sort of science that allows them, in a "matter of fact, written in stone" attitude predict which young players (drafts) will/will not succeed in MLB simply based on numbers staring back at them from a page.

    Just like I disagree with "old school" scouting methods that were based totally on observation and discount the numbers, you can't go to the other extreme and totally rely on stats while discounting observation. And I believe many on here do just that. Both have to be inclusive to the process when dealing with young, raw, immature talent. Immature both physically and emotionally.

    If that is the case then organizations can save a boatload of money on scouting. Just buy these guys laptops and provide them with an office.

    Most people had red-flagged Drew Stubbs due to his massive whiff rate in college and posted concerns about his ability to hit consistently with a wood bat while simultaneously pegging Tim Lincecum as "instant pitching, just add water." Both bits have turned out, thus far, to be true.
    And for everyone of these examples you can hold out, there are also plenty of examples of young players that people "projected" success that haven't come close to panning out. One example off the top of my head? Jeremy Sowers. I'd garner to say that others could be sighted.

    There is boatloads of information out there for anyone smart enough and willing enough to make use of it -- if the fans are making good use of it, the GMs damn sure better use it.
    Then maybe some of these fans should send their resumes in and see if they can get a job interview.

    Statistical analysis has always been an intricate part of the game of baseball since Chadwick created the box score. I just think some of it goes a little overboard, and I question it's relevancy. And BABIP is one of them IMHO.

    Every day there seems to be another formula, another equation or methodology that comes out, that is like "straining at a gnat", and I question just how relevant it is in player evaluation and to the game of baseball.

    It's like a group of people trying to perfect a circle.

    How is anyone, especially a GM, suppose to keep up on all this stuff when those fans who are deeply involved in statistical analysis can't even agree? I've been on this forum long enough to see members take a particular ballplayer(s), run him through their gauntlet of analysis, and by the time they are done neither can agree with each other's critique of said player because one can always point out some "weakness" somewhere as justification as to why this player should/shouldn't be considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Having said that, I don't buy the "it's a tough job" defense.
    I wasn't using that defense. Only that many seem to be somewhat oblivious to what all really compromises the GM position in it's totality. Just because you've pinpointed various players you'd like to have, utilizing the methodology available, there are still many other variables and intangibles involved that keep it from becoming a possibility.
    Last edited by GAC; 12-28-2007 at 05:01 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  16. #45
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    I said yes. I am a fan of WK. I truely believe there are a lot of people in this city who don't particularly like him because he doesn't talk openly about what he plans on doing. There are also people who don't agree with his plan and dislike him becaues of that. I think every GM makes moves that he thinks make the the organization better, whether it is at the major league level, minor league level, or financial level. Here are some of the positives that I see.

    1. Changed a stagnant organization over. He got rid of many scouts and personal development types, to much of the media's dismay, who had not performed for years.
    2. Took top prospects in Rookie and A ball and molded them into top prospects who are MLB ready. He also increased overall depth of the farm system.
    3. IMO he has spent money wisely in FA. He hasn't wasted money to this point. Cordero was given a big contract so we will see how that works out.
    4. He and his scouts have shown the ability to evaluate talent and has stuck by that evaluation.
    5. Baseball isn't football where fortunes can change overnight. He has resisted the knee jerk reaction that could set this franchise back another 10 years.
    While some of this is true (I could take issue with some points, especially #2 and #4), he needs to produce on the field. Last year's team was an abomination. This year's team better show a significant amount of improvement or I think he is gone.


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