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View Poll Results: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

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  • Yes

    38 36.89%
  • No

    10 9.71%
  • He should be further evaluated this season

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Thread: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

  1. #61
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    5 years could go by and we could be having the same conversation.
    I think that 5 years is the better time to have it. At least 4, if you use the Brooklyn situation as guide-- Rickey's team got a lot better in four. DanO was a rare exception who was quickly horrendous. Krivsky seems much more up for it. I think that he's beginning to find his legs.

    the availability of Jocketty makes the conversation immediately important, but I trust that we'd find a good GM in the future.

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  3. #62
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    I think Krivsky's future will be on the young arms he has been building up.

    He has his vets, now he needs his kids to fill in the gaps.

    That should lift the Reds market size in future years relative to other franchises even if overall declines occur across baseball if Wayne's stockings work.

  4. #63
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Krivsky's been on a good run since about June of last year. I've tossed my share of criticisms at him when he's done wrong, but it's only fair to toss some compliments at him when he's done right.

    Lots of people - including myself - were a bit confused and not-so-much thrilled with the direction of things back in June, especially after the Bailey promotion. Since then, though, he's gone full throttle in a very nice direction (I did note back in June, however, that the one real big positive I liked seeing at that time was an across the board improvement down in in the minor leagues).

    Fast forward to the new year, and the last six months have been pretty good. Minor league development and prospect improvement across the board continued throughout the season. The draft was pretty good across the board; we can debate the merits of Mesoraco all day, but I liked the quality depth overall in that draft. Narron was fired - that was an absolute must. Lohse was flipped for Maloney, and he's looking pretty good. Votto got called up in September, and the Reds gave him some PAs.

    The offseason has been pretty good too. Cordero's going to help the bullpen, and I'm a big fan of the Hamilton/Volquez swap. The Reds need pitching, and they've gotten a bit of help this offseason. We'll see how "Dusty 4 Life" - as one of my buddies sarcastically calls him - fares. I've come around on him a bit from his hiring, but I'll likely go back to loathing him once he rides a starting pitcher up near 125 pitches.

    No, I don't want to extend Krivsky right now, but I do want to see how things progress this season. If he can prolong the ride from the last six months, then things will start looking up with results on the field. If that ride stalls, then it'll be another long season.
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  5. #64
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aronchis View Post
    I think Krivsky's future will be on the young arms he has been building up.
    absolutely. And because he didn't deal for Bedard, this is true in both the short and long-term. Unfortunately, nothing's less predictable than young pitching. He might have the right arms in place, but it will take at least 2-3 years to understand if that's true. also, the current defense makes assessing even more difficult.

    I'll be surprised if we have good pitching this season. Too many young pitchers need to come through.

  6. #65
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    I don't think Krivsky is going anywhere anytime soon.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  7. #66
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    I'll be surprised if we have good pitching this season. Too many young pitchers need to come through.
    Me too. You'll see flashes of brilliance and flashes of inexperience. Hopefully you won't see any arm injuries.
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  8. #67
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    :notworthy great post gac, agree with it pretty much word for word

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    I agree with everything you state. Good post. But having said that, I still see no rush to extend him when we can exercise an option. There is still time to do that at a future date. I don't think he's going anywhere.



    Bingo! Lets fire the guy and see how many other potential GM clients will be lining up to take the job seeing the unreasonable time frame (IMO) that's being imposed upon them to turn around an organization that has been poorly ran and mismanaged for the last decade top to bottom. Sure, we've seem previous GMs pick up a "piece" here and there; but they've been unable to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

    WE (the fans) know very little when it comes to the position of a GM. Though we like to assume that we do. I blame Rotisserie baseball, fantasy leagues, Baseball Prospectus, and a host of other organizations and websites, that, while making the study and research of the game of baseball more fun and approachable to millions of fans, has also deluded many into thinking they could be more competent GMs. A GM's job is far more comprehensive and takes far more involvement than looking at a Pythag or series of numbers and equations on a page.

    Changing GMs every 2-3 years because a certain segment of the fanbase thinks his philosophy/approach is too far out of line with theirs is ridiculous, and respectfully IMHO, almost a sign of arrogance.

    Forgive me if I sound kinda harsh; but that's the way I feel when I hear fans doing an evaluation/performance of a job they, realistically know very little about, and which none of us has (or could) ever hold. And especially when we are putting up polls.



    If some are so concerned about Wayne and his handling of the draft and young player development, then look at Jocketty's record in this area. It is not his area of expertise.

  9. #68
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    My friend, I'm not sure Jesus himself could have turned this franchise around in two years time. Krivsky has certainly missed with some deals, but he's hit on many more.

    Billy Beane didn't turn the A's around overnight, nor did Terry Ryan turn the Twins into annual contenders in just a year. It's a long, at times painful process, and I really think Krivsky has this franchise going in the right direction

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    That's a point I've been making for a while...when evaluating Krivsky, a lot of people love to applaud his acquisitions of Hamilton, Phillips and Arroyo. Bottom line is the team performed worse this past year than the year before he took over. We can pick out a few winners for Wayne, but bottom line is he needs to win.

    This is the third year. If they do not show a nice chunk of improvement then he should be given the boot. He has chosen not to rebuild, so minimally we should be seeing improvement on the major league level by now.

  10. #69
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    My friend, I'm not sure Jesus himself could have turned this franchise around in two years time. Krivsky has certainly missed with some deals, but he's hit on many more.

    Billy Beane didn't turn the A's around overnight, nor did Terry Ryan turn the Twins into annual contenders in just a year. It's a long, at times painful process, and I really think Krivsky has this franchise going in the right direction
    How do you define "overnight"? 3 years is not overnight.

    The past is the past. I'm not talking about last year. This is a new year. There must be improvement.

    Everyone is so quick to jump to Wayne's defense, it's almost as if he is a family member of some. How can we not expect a good amount of improvement in '08?

    • They play in an absolute joke of a division.
    • Krivsky has had millions at his disposal over the last 2 offseasons, which he has spent on his guys. That's important. This is his team.
    • It would be extremely difficult not to improve the mess he took over.
    • Everyone's favorite excuse, Eric Milton, is finally off the books.


    Unless we are so used to mediocrity that it has become acceptable, an actual playoff race should be the minimum this year. Anything less should cost this guy his job.

  11. #70
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    I completely agree with you that we need to see some improvement this year. It's year 3, and that's a big year. But I think there HAS been improvement, and I think it will start to show off this year. If it's another disastrous year, then yes, his job is in jeopardy. But if he goes .500 give or take a few wins and the young pitcher's show signs of breaking out? I keep him, and I think he would deserve to stay in that instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    How do you define "overnight"? 3 years is not overnight.

    The past is the past. I'm not talking about last year. This is a new year. There must be improvement.

    Everyone is so quick to jump to Wayne's defense, it's almost as if he is a family member of some. How can we not expect a good amount of improvement in '08?

    • They play in an absolute joke of a division.
    • Krivsky has had millions at his disposal over the last 2 offseasons, which he has spent on his guys. That's important. This is his team.
    • It would be extremely difficult not to improve the mess he took over.
    • Everyone's favorite excuse, Eric Milton, is finally off the books.


    Unless we are so used to mediocrity that it has become acceptable, an actual playoff race should be the minimum this year. Anything less should cost this guy his job.

  12. #71
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I voted "No".

    When evaluating a General Manager the proof is in the pudding. The pudding says the Reds have had miserable records the past two seasons.
    Depends on what kind of pudding you're making though. Building (or even attempting to restore) a franchise is not like making instant pudding (unless you got lots of money). Good pudding (like my Mom use to make) takes time and the mixture of the right ingredients.

    So the question is - is he putting together the right ingredients?

    I didn't vote; but my reasoning for not extending him at this stage is because there is no dire need to do so at this stage. Not because I think he has down a bad job. But if it came down to retaining the guy I'd say yes.

    We can compare and contrast every transaction, draft pick, trade and signing but our opinions mean less than the team's record on the field. The team has performed poorly -- so it will be hard to convince me the GM has done a good job so far.
    Absolutely true, when looking at this team's overall record in the 2 years of his tenure. Though there was a lot of optimism in his first year in which this team was competitive, and then faltered in the stretch. Last year we saw regression, and was basically a bust.

    But looking at what needs to be accomplished/implemented to restore this franchise to respectability, and where we were to begin with - last winning season was 2000 - is using win-loss record a true barometer of the GM's success after only two years?

    We can name lots of seemingly very good moves Krivsky has made, but since the team has a losing record under his tenure those good moves must have been cancelled out by the poor moves.
    How do we know, or can even state that, when those "good moves" are the acquisition of young players (drafts, from other team's farm systems, etc) that overall are in the developmental stage and considered to be future contributors, meaning, they aren't yet contributing to the current roster (but expect to).

    Good moves are good moves, and bad moves are bad moves. Wayne has done both. They are what they are; but I don't see how one cancels out the other.

    And Wayne has made his questionable moves; but I will say this.... he hasn't made any moves IMHO that have severely hurt or hamstrung this team as far as longterm goes (i.e. a Milton deal). Yeah, he's went out and gotten marginal, mediocre players, like the Womacks, Castro's, Conines, etc. And we've all shaken our heads over them; but they were low risk acquisitions that really haven't "killed" this team as far as what they are trying to achieve, which is (I hope) restocking and rebuilding through our farm system.

    Most of the team's hopes and strengths lie with players acquired before Krivsky arrived. Harang, Dunn, Griffey, Encarnacion, Bailey, Votto, Cueto, and Bruce represent the bulk of this team's foundation for 2008 and beyond and all of those players were here pre-Krivsky. Wayne has brought in Arroyo, Phillips, Cordero and a bunch of spare parts. These additions were not nearly enough to turn a bad team into a good one -- and that is why the team has continued to play badly.
    And when it comes to those young ballplayers - how long were they in the farm system before getting that opportunity to prove themselves? .....

    Cueto was signed as a non-drafted free agent in 2004. We might see him at some point in '08, but that is still almost 4 years in the farms before getting the opportunity.

    Bailey was selected in the 1st round of 2004. IMO they rushed him up here last year after two years in the farms, and it showed (regardless of the fact he got injured). 2008 will be his first full season in which he gets the opportunity to prove himself. So that is still close to 3 years in the farm system.

    Votto was drafted on 2002 and spent almost 5 years in the farms before a late season callup.

    Encarnacion was drafted by the Rangers in '99, and traded to the Reds in '01. 2006 was his first full year with the club where up and down. But that's still close to 5 years in the ML system.

    My point? So how are we able to accurately rate/evaluate, at this stage, any of Krivksy's drafts (2 total)?

    Is that being fair to him (or any GM)?
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  13. #72
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    GAC,

    I agree we have not had enough time to evaluate Krivsky yet. His draft picks have not worked through the system yet so it is way too early to definitively judge them. The early results are not good. Have we heard any praise of any of his draft picks at all? I haven't. But it is still very early and those players could still turn it around and become solid major leaguers.

    However, the point of the thread isn't whether to keep Krivsky or fire him, but rather "Should Wayne Krivky's contract be extended." I don't think we should fire him by any means. But I also don't see the slightest reason to commit to additional years of his administration based on his current results. He is already under contract for 2008 and we have an option for 2009. If the club shows improvement and starts winning during that period then we can extend him. What do we have to gain by taking that leap of faith now?

    What I have seen so far from Krivsky is two losing seasons and a dearth of promising draft picks. Why should Castellini be excited enough about that to sign him to another long-term contract?
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 12-29-2007 at 04:08 PM.

  14. #73
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    GAC,

    the point of the thread isn't whether to keep Krivsky or fire him, but rather "Should Wayne Krivky's contract be extended." I don't think we should fire him by any means. But I also don't see the slightest reason to commit to additional years of his administration based on his current results. He is already under contract for 2008 and we have an option for 2009. If the club shows improvement and starts winning during that period then we can extend him. What do we have to gain by taking that leap of faith now?
    I've worked knowing that I had three years' commitment, and I've worked knowing that I had a possible one-and-done. I made different decisions based on those situations.

  15. #74
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    I've worked knowing that I had three years' commitment, and I've worked knowing that I had a possible one-and-done. I made different decisions based on those situations.
    Which goes back to the point made a few pages back -- although there is no market pressure to extend Krivsky right now, if you generally agree with the direction of the ballclub and the decisions he is making, it makes sense to give him a vote of financial confidence.

    If he thinks he's on the hot seat this year, it might press him into focusing solely on short-term at the expense of the long term. I certainly don't want to see a total talent mortgage at the deadline because Krivsky thinks he needs to put a .500 or sub-.500 team over the top with 2 or 3 marginal acquisitions and "save" his job.

    The amount you'd have to pay Krivsky (or any executive) is minor compared to baseball talent, and cutting on a GM's contract midway through doesn't represent a huge burden on the bottom line. So, really, a 2-3 year extension really doesn't hurt the team that much and might actually help in the long-run.
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  16. #75
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Should Wayne Krivsky's contract be extended?

    True, the bottom line is winning percentage, but given what Krivsky inherited, to expect him to build a team that can consistently win within a span of two years is unfair. Jim Bowden, Dan O'Brien, etc. had consistently taken steps backwards with the organization. There was arguably a decade or so consisting of bad decisions that set the team back.

    What I can tell is that Wayne Krivsky is good at taking a horrible organization and quickly turning it into an average organization. It won't be until the next year or two that we can see if he can take an average organization and turn it into a great organization. For me, the question is, "Do we extend the contract of someone who has done a great job of meeting our short-term goals, or do we wait to see if he can meet our long-term goals before we reward him?"


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