The REAL Marvin Lewis...

[Dom Heffner]

I know you are impressed by such things, but "buck stops here" talk has never really done much for me.

It's not just an issue of "the buck stops here."

It's when an interviewer asks him point blank about his coaching style, he starts in with the "we" crap. If you don't want to answer the question, just don't answer it. But don't bring anybody else into it when the question was specifically about you.

If you think I'm parsing words and Marvin was not carefully choosing his, just look at the Willie Anderson response and follow up question.

[traderumor]

I disagree. The vast majority of our most talented players (Chad, T.J., Willie, Levi and Rudi) were in place when Lewis took over. You can give him credit for drafting Palmer, but that was a no-brainer to most. I'm not ready to run him out of town yet, but I'm unwilling to credit him for acquiring talent that was already there.

But those most talented players came off a 2-14 season and were a laughingstock when Marvin got here. Those most talented players did not amount to squat as a team. Rudi was a backup running back when Marvin arrived, Dillon had a year much like Rudi's current year his first and last year under Marvin. That was a decision he made, and it was a win/win for Rudi and Corey. All of a sudden, Rudi goes from an exhibition season all-star to the Pro Bowl. So, while those were holdovers, they were not enjoying the success that they have since Marvin's arrival.

And then, to minimize the pick (and pre-draft signing) and first year sitting as a "no-brainer" makes me look no further than KiJana Carter, Akili Smith and Dan Wilkinson. Perhaps it was a no-brainer because Marvin was at the helm, but then you seem reluctant to give any credit, even when its due, and that's really not being a fair evaluator.

In comparison, how about that graphic for the Dolphins yesterday. Six years of draft picks in prior years, one still on a team that won one game. I think you could pull names out of a hat and do better. That kind of poor drafting defies all odds. Meanwhile, the Bengals are slowly looking at one of the better up and coming secondaries as Joseph and Hall really seemed to turn the corner the second half of the year. Get them a pass rush and the D could be looking at finally turning the corner.

[Hoosier Red]

But those most talented players came off a 2-14 season and were a laughingstock when Marvin got here. Those most talented players did not amount to squat as a team. Rudi was a backup running back when Marvin arrived, Dillon had a year much like Rudi's current year his first and last year under Marvin. That was a decision he made, and it was a win/win for Rudi and Corey. All of a sudden, Rudi goes from an exhibition season all-star to the Pro Bowl. So, while those were holdovers, they were not enjoying the success that they have since Marvin's arrival.

And then, to minimize the pick (and pre-draft signing) and first year sitting as a "no-brainer" makes me look no further than KiJana Carter, Akili Smith and Dan Wilkinson. Perhaps it was a no-brainer because Marvin was at the helm, but then you seem reluctant to give any credit, even when its due, and that's really not being a fair evaluator.

In comparison, how about that graphic for the Dolphins yesterday. Six years of draft picks in prior years, one still on a team that won one game. I think you could pull names out of a hat and do better. That kind of poor drafting defies all odds. Meanwhile, the Bengals are slowly looking at one of the better up and coming secondaries as Joseph and Hall really seemed to turn the corner the second half of the year. Get them a pass rush and the D could be looking at finally turning the corner.

I agree that the Defense isn't as far away is it may look.
My concern is that it's so hard to improve when you have 7 spots to improve.
Landon Johnson's going to become a FA, he's pretty good, but he can't be the top LB if we're going to compete. On the other hand if you let him walk that's three(maybe four) LB's you have to replace.
I felt the same way about Justin Smith last year, no where near worth the Franchise tag, except if you let him walk, what is it going to cost to replace him.
As of right now, there are 4 guys in the front 7 I wouldn't mind being in the starting lineup(all other things equal) come next year
Justin Smith, Dometa Peko, Dhani Jones and Landon Johnson.
Three are free agents.
So you try to upgrade but really you're having to replace 6 spots not three.

[BUTLER REDSFAN]

just heard a replay of the press conference today..sos...Lewis answering nothing..same sneering sound to his voice..why do they even bother

[Yachtzee]

just heard a replay of the press conference today..sos...Lewis answering nothing..same sneering sound to his voice..why do they even bother

Sounds like Chick Ludwig was probably asking the questions. Lewis and Ludwig have a sort of hate-hate relationship.

[Boss-Hog]

But those most talented players came off a 2-14 season and were a laughingstock when Marvin got here. Those most talented players did not amount to squat as a team.

Willie was established and Levi was just coming off his rookie year when Lewis arrived, but I agree with you that Rudi, T.J. and Chad all broke out after Marvin arrived (though the latter was starting to in 2002).

Rudi was a backup running back when Marvin arrived, Dillon had a year much like Rudi's current year his first and last year under Marvin. That was a decision he made, and it was a win/win for Rudi and Corey. All of a sudden, Rudi goes from an exhibition season all-star to the Pro Bowl. So, while those were holdovers, they were not enjoying the success that they have since Marvin's arrival.

I agree with that, though I've always maintained that Lewis and his coaching staff should have known what they had in Rudi after having him for a year of practice and games. If they had, it wouldn't had meant wasting a first round pick on a RB (and that's not hindsight talking; I felt the same way in April 2004).

And then, to minimize the pick (and pre-draft signing) and first year sitting as a "no-brainer" makes me look no further than KiJana Carter, Akili Smith and Dan Wilkinson. Perhaps it was a no-brainer because Marvin was at the helm, but then you seem reluctant to give any credit, even when its due, and that's really not being a fair evaluator.

I'll give him credit for making the pick, but every mock-draft and NFL "expert" had them taking Palmer. They clearly needed a quarterback, and that's the position most often chosen with the number one overall pick, so unless you really thought they were going to take Leftwitch, Palmer was the pretty obvious choice by all acounts.

In comparison, how about that graphic for the Dolphins yesterday. Six years of draft picks in prior years, one still on a team that won one game. I think you could pull names out of a hat and do better. That kind of poor drafting defies all odds.

I did see that and that's pretty unbelievable how poorly that organization has drafted. I think we've drafted poorly on defense for the past five years, despite devoting the majority of our picks to that area, but obviously not that badly.

Meanwhile, the Bengals are slowly looking at one of the better up and coming secondaries as Joseph and Hall really seemed to turn the corner the second half of the year. Get them a pass rush and the D could be looking at finally turning the corner.

I agree with you that the secondary seems to be solidified for the future (at least on paper). However, until they develop a consistent pash rush, (which they haven't been able to do with the same person making the final call during my lifetime) I don't think it's going to matter much. The Bengals continue to ignore premium talent in the front seven defensively (both via the draft and free agency), so no matter how talented you think our young DB's may be, the Damon Huards, J.P. Losmans and Shaun Hills of the world will continue to beat us until we can put some pressure on them. Signing bargains like Bryan Robinson and Michael Myers will only get you so far. I knew we were in for another very long season defensively when they committed top five money to Justin Smith last offseason and it certainly won't surprise me if they overpay him again this year (despite producing a whopping two sacks in 2007).

[RedFanAlways1966]

Sounds like Chick Ludwig was probably asking the questions. Lewis and Ludwig have a sort of hate-hate relationship.

Probably didn't help that Ludwig predicted in his Sunday column...

Miami 23 - Bengals 20.

[traderumor]

I'll give him credit for making the pick, but every mock-draft and NFL "expert" had them taking Palmer. They clearly needed a quarterback, and that's the position most often chosen with the number one overall pick, so unless you really thought they were going to take Leftwitch, Palmer was the pretty obvious choice by all acounts.

Many a franchise, including the Bengals, have defied the mock drafts and made a bonehead draft day surprise with that pick (see Houston Texans, San Diego Chargers). He simply has to get credit, even though it seemed like an obvious decision. Plus, he was instrumental in making the decision and getting Carson on board when the situation could have very easily turned into one the Chargers dealt with for the Eli Manning pick because of the Bengals reputation at the time.

I am encouraged by the article that started this thread because Marvin does indeed seem to be doing some franchise soul searching, which is exactly the stage the franchise is at. I know it has been argued that he is failing to self-examine, but I simply think too much is being made of using "we" vs. "I" in an interview. Anyone who is proposing tearing down what he put together is very hard to accuse of failing to self-examine.

[Highlifeman21]

As a just-in-case gesture, I took my Brother (HUGE Bengals fan) by Marvin's house yesterday so he could see where Mr. Lewis lives and possibly could have lived. The irony is that Marvin's isn't even the nicest joint on the street, but given where he lives I'm not ultimately suprised.

With Mike Brown still alive and kicking, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to watch two things happen this offseason.

1. Marvin Lewis fired.
2. Bengals punt the 1st Round Pick.

As long as Mike Brown still makes "decisions" for the Bengals, I fear for any positive outcome.

[traderumor]

As a just-in-case gesture, I took my Brother (HUGE Bengals fan) by Marvin's house yesterday so he could see where Mr. Lewis lives and possibly could have lived. The irony is that Marvin's isn't even the nicest joint on the street, but given where he lives I'm not ultimately suprised.

With Mike Brown still alive and kicking, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to watch two things happen this offseason.

1. Marvin Lewis fired.
2. Bengals punt the 1st Round Pick.

As long as Mike Brown still makes "decisions" for the Bengals, I fear for any positive outcome.

There is a less than 1% chance of Marvin getting fired, with the whole chance being the likelihood of Marvin having an affair with Katie and Mikie firing him as a result.

[Dom Heffner]

1. Marvin Lewis fired.

He just got an extnsion and Marvin Lewis isn't going to pay somebody for not working on him.

[Yachtzee]

He just got an extnsion and Marvin Lewis isn't going to pay somebody for not working on him.

Actually, Mike Brown won't pay, but we know what you meant. I would mention that Mike Brown did end up paying Sam Wyche for firing him early, even though he tried to play it off as if Wyche had quit. If Marvin Lewis does not do anything to threaten the Brown family's control over the team, he will likely stay until the last year of his contract. I think if Lewis meets with Brown this week and demands a GM, more scouts and less interference from Brown, Lewis will be sent packing.

[WMR]

Did you notice his answer to the "Do the Bengals need a GM" question?

[Yachtzee]

Did you notice his answer to the "Do the Bengals need a GM" question?

I'm not always sure that what Lewis says in public is the same thing he says behind closed doors. His answer to that question is the right thing to say if he wants to keep his job, but it doesn't mean he will say the same thing in his meeting with Brown.

[traderumor]

Actually, Mike Brown won't pay, but we know what you meant. I would mention that Mike Brown did end up paying Sam Wyche for firing him early, even though he tried to play it off as if Wyche had quit. If Marvin Lewis does not do anything to threaten the Brown family's control over the team, he will likely stay until the last year of his contract. I think if Lewis meets with Brown this week and demands a GM, more scouts and less interference from Brown, Lewis will be sent packing.

Don't be so sure about that. When Marvin was brought on board, he got several upgrades, like significant upgrades to the workout facilities and more scouts. I think he still has Mikey's ear, although I see it only takes one tough season for the "Mike Brown--NFL miser" montras to begin again.