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Thread: Bresnahan speaks....

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    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Bresnahan speaks....

    Lots of nothing

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    The Future GoReds33's Avatar
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    Re: Bresnahan speaks....

    I can tell you why he wanted the defensive scheme simplified. Have you ever been watching when the cameras get pointed on him? He looks like he has no clue what's going on.
    If you can't build a winning team with that core a fire-sale isn't the solution. Selling the franchise, moving them to Nashville and converting GABP into a used car lot is.
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    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Bresnahan speaks....

    So the Bengals found this years scapegoat, wonder who will be next years?
    Go Gators!

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    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Bresnahan speaks....

    Well, I guess one way to get players to play faster is to dumb down the system. The other is to get players with the speed, intelligence and work ethic to handle a more complicated system. There are plenty of teams that run defenses with multiple looks, different moves based on reads, "fire zones" involving LBs and DBs rushing with DLs dropping into coverage. Those teams don't seem to have a problem with complicated defenses and their guys don't necessarily make a whole lot more money that members of the Bengals' D. IMO, the Bengals have always run a pretty straightforward D with differences based on the number of guys they rush. If they need to dumb it down to get better, then maybe they need to get better players. Bresnahan had a hand in scouting and identifying players who could help the team.

    I can somewhat see his point on the disparity between the money spent on offense vs. the money spent on defense. However, I think 3 of the 4 top money makers on D (Smith, Thornton, and O'Neal) weren't really playing up to their contracts anyway. If the Bengals let two of those guys go, they'd probably have been able to sign a difference maker on D and the team would have been better even without equal money spent on both sides of the ball. Bengals' coaches have a lot of input on personnel decisions, or so I've heard, so Bresnahan has to take some of the blame for the players on the team and their level of preparedness.

    Sounds to me like "Bam Bam" likes to pass the buck.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Bresnahan speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    So the Bengals found this years scapegoat, wonder who will be next years?
    Mike Brown.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


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    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Bresnahan speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Well, I guess one way to get players to play faster is to dumb down the system. The other is to get players with the speed, intelligence and work ethic to handle a more complicated system. There are plenty of teams that run defenses with multiple looks, different moves based on reads, "fire zones" involving LBs and DBs rushing with DLs dropping into coverage. Those teams don't seem to have a problem with complicated defenses and their guys don't necessarily make a whole lot more money that members of the Bengals' D. IMO, the Bengals have always run a pretty straightforward D with differences based on the number of guys they rush. If they need to dumb it down to get better, then maybe they need to get better players. Bresnahan had a hand in scouting and identifying players who could help the team.

    I can somewhat see his point on the disparity between the money spent on offense vs. the money spent on defense. However, I think 3 of the 4 top money makers on D (Smith, Thornton, and O'Neal) weren't really playing up to their contracts anyway. If the Bengals let two of those guys go, they'd probably have been able to sign a difference maker on D and the team would have been better even without equal money spent on both sides of the ball. Bengals' coaches have a lot of input on personnel decisions, or so I've heard, so Bresnahan has to take some of the blame for the players on the team and their level of preparedness.

    Sounds to me like "Bam Bam" likes to pass the buck.
    I agree with most of the 1st part and to some extent the 2nd part. 1st off the coaches have done much less scouting since we added a few guys a couple of years back. He may have had some input but I doubt it was enough to give him a share of the blame w/ regards to scouting. Even if he had more input he doesn't have the ultimate say, and if Marvin is putting that much stock in what an overworked non-scout is saying he needs his brain checked. That said regardless of the money involved it's still a matter of development which is his responsibility to oversee and it's a cop out on his part. Good riddence Chuck!

    Thornton was double teamed quite often, which indicates that the opposition felt he was the guy who could give them the most problems on that line. In that case he's doing his job in taking up multiple blockers, and it was then up to his teammates to take advantage of their one on one assignments. Justin Smith may have not been worth what they are paying him but that's hardly his fault. He is what he is, he's 3-4 DE or a run stuffing 4-3 DE. You don't pay those guys franchise DE type wages, but they did and he played pretty much as well as he usually does. He applied plenty of pressure but didn't often come up with sacks. That is based much more on gaping holes in coverage than a lack of rush from him. Deltha O'neal I'll give ya he was the worst cancer on the team.

    Hunley makes an excellent point and something I have been thinking for some time. Something is dumb in the system and it's the players for the most part. Not all of them mind you but enough to continually be doing something that they are not supposed to be doing. Guys who are not often stand out as playmakers Thornton, Smith, Landon, Brian Robinson etc. Some guys however are proving to be dumb and that list is lead by O'neal, Brooks, Maybe Madieu and Jeanty as well.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

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    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Bresnahan speaks....

    Not to bust your chops, Mario-Rijo, but I often see a lot of praise for Smith, Thornton, and Robinson from various sources. However, I also hear praise for Geathers and Peko, yet the Bengals DL consistently fails to get pressure on the QB.

    You mentioned Smith, Thornton and Robinson as guys doing what they're supposed to and standing out as playmakers. Smith and Thornton I've always seen as role players rather than top money guys. They get paid as though they should be top performers. The problem with those guys, as I see it, is that other teams didn't seem to have to do a lot this season to neutralize them. Smith's problem on passing plays, as I saw it, was that his specialty was to bull rush from the outside. The problem is that tackles would just take a matador approach and guide him past the QB as the QB steps up in the pocket. Why could teams do that? Because there was no push up the middle to collapse the pocket. Who's up the middle? Thornton and Peko. While you don't necessarily expect Thornton and Peko to get a lot of sacks, you hope they get enough push to collapse the pocket so the QB can't step up and has to throw early or get sacked by Smith or Geathers. Even if Thornton is double-teamed, you'd like to see him push one of those guys back into the pocket to make things tight for the QB. If they can't get push up the middle, then Smith and Geathers at least need to have the ability to shed blockers and get to the QB. At least that's my rudimentary understanding of DL tactics on a non-blitzing pass play.

    So if Smith, Thornton, and Robinson are doing what they're supposed to be doing, does that by elimination mean that Peko and Geathers are the weak links on the DL?
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Bresnahan speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    Mike Brown.
    Never.
    Go Gators!

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    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Bresnahan speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    Never.
    We can't all be Jaguars fans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


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    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Bresnahan speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    We can't all be Jaguars fans.
    Down go the Steelers
    Go Gators!

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    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Bresnahan speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    Down go the Steelers
    Poor little fella.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


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    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Bresnahan speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Not to bust your chops, Mario-Rijo, but I often see a lot of praise for Smith, Thornton, and Robinson from various sources. However, I also hear praise for Geathers and Peko, yet the Bengals DL consistently fails to get pressure on the QB.

    You mentioned Smith, Thornton and Robinson as guys doing what they're supposed to and standing out as playmakers. Smith and Thornton I've always seen as role players rather than top money guys. They get paid as though they should be top performers. The problem with those guys, as I see it, is that other teams didn't seem to have to do a lot this season to neutralize them. Smith's problem on passing plays, as I saw it, was that his specialty was to bull rush from the outside. The problem is that tackles would just take a matador approach and guide him past the QB as the QB steps up in the pocket. Why could teams do that? Because there was no push up the middle to collapse the pocket. Who's up the middle? Thornton and Peko. While you don't necessarily expect Thornton and Peko to get a lot of sacks, you hope they get enough push to collapse the pocket so the QB can't step up and has to throw early or get sacked by Smith or Geathers. Even if Thornton is double-teamed, you'd like to see him push one of those guys back into the pocket to make things tight for the QB. If they can't get push up the middle, then Smith and Geathers at least need to have the ability to shed blockers and get to the QB. At least that's my rudimentary understanding of DL tactics on a non-blitzing pass play.

    So if Smith, Thornton, and Robinson are doing what they're supposed to be doing, does that by elimination mean that Peko and Geathers are the weak links on the DL?
    I agree to some extent with what your saying. Sure what you want is guys to provide pressure to the passer (not necc. sack him, although that's ideal) and stop the run. The problem I have is blaming the players for the guys who put them in place. Now if I had reason to believe that something the players are doing would fix a part of their problem I would have more of a problem with them. I just don't see that in them so much as I do a problem with the assembling of talent.

    Marvin has this philosophy of looking for guys who are versatile, which is the exact opposite of "specializes in". We don't have a great sack artist, we don't have a great run stuffer etc. What we have is a collection of guys who can move all around the place, sort of a host of jack-of-all-trades but masters of none. They are avg or slightly better in all areas but don't do anything at a high level. I guess what I am trying to say is that any team would love to have any of these 5 guys (including Robinson) but not many teams would like them all on the same line at the same time.

    1 other thing I must add to the Geathers point is that he was often a duck out of water playing LB. He likely did the best he could do given the circumstances. Here's a guy who has already played DT,DE and LB in some lengthy stints since he has been here and is only suited for one. Sure the guy has done an ok job in those areas considering, but he should have been manning the DE position the whole time. And when he mainly played that position last year game in and game out he flourished.

    So again Hunley had a point, and I'll expand that to include Marvin want's way too much versatility out of these guys and therefore that's all he's mining is guys who can do a little of everything but nothing particularly well. Or what they do well isn't primarily what you want out of that position. That's a flawed approach IMO and that shouldn't be taken out on the guys who are trying to do more than they are capable of.

    I'll say this it's not a bad philosophy to have guys who are versatile but it's bad execution both in targeting the right people for it and developing them. But either way it doesn't much matter what the front 4 is doing when you have virtually no talent or continuity at the LB position. You saw what happened once we had some continuity the last 5 games or so, now just imagine if we actually had some talent w/ brains to boot.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

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    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Bresnahan speaks....

    Somebody pinch me for saying this, but the offense is just as much to blame for this fiasco, and Bratkowski should be out the door too. 1st down pass, 2nd down run, 3rd down pass, every single series. It's the most predictable offense around.

    The offense severely underperformed in several games, including in games against the Bills, the Chiefs, the 49er's, and the Steelers. If they perform as they normally do, we're in the playoffs. The defense obviously had it problems, but this year, they were hardly alone.


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