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Thread: Krivsky On Way Out?

  1. #46
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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by isaiahbarney View Post
    I am afraid your assessment of Jocketty is misguided at best. In no way can I see this move hurting the Reds, only helping them.

    Where have you ever heard that a package even remotely close to the one you proposed has been offered or discussed? What in Jocketty's history makes you believe he would even consider such a trade?

    Until such a move is mentioned there is no reason for such negativity.
    have you read the entire thread? Jocketty prefers vets and doesn't develope young talent...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

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  3. #47
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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxilon View Post
    I'd say it worked to perfection for Florida with Chris Leak and Tim Tebow last year.
    Tebow was used as a running back IMO
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  4. #48
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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by isaiahbarney View Post
    I am afraid your assessment of Jocketty is misguided at best. In no way can I see this move hurting the Reds, only helping them.

    Where have you ever heard that a package even remotely close to the one you proposed has been offered or discussed? What in Jocketty's history makes you believe he would even consider such a trade?

    Until such a move is mentioned there is no reason for such negativity.
    WOW.... have you ever heard of the trade.....

    Danny Haren, Kiko Calero, Daric Barton for Mark Mulder

    That's one of the best SP in baseball, a very very good RP, and one of the best prospects in baseball that's the equal that Votto is now. All these guys were the top Cards prospects and all would eventually be cheap for a long time.
    Another parallel.... Mulder had been injured the season before the trade (like Bedard) and was considered one of the best SP in baseball (like Bedard). Both had 2 years left. However Mulder got hurt after his 1st season, and hasn't done anything afterwards. This trade was essentially....

    3 years of Haren (which were all better than Mulder) AND
    4 years of Calero
    6 years of Barton
    6 years of Gonzalez
    6 years of Carter
    6 years of Cunningham
    6 years of Anderson
    6 years of Smith
    6 years of Eveland

    Some of these guys you don't know, but the point is that the A's got better production from just 1 SP than Mulder, and got a potential additional 46 years of decent production.

  5. #49
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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    I really don't care as long as it nets us a World Series Championship like it did for Jocketty in St. Louis.
    That hit was plenty fair. Atleast by a quarter of an inch.
    -Steve Stone

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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxilon View Post
    I really don't care as long as it nets us a World Series Championship like it did for Jocketty in St. Louis.
    I really don't care that I went all-in with a 2/7 offsuit as long as I won the hand. Surely this method will work again next hand...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  7. #51
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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by mlbfan30 View Post
    WOW.... have you ever heard of the trade.....

    Danny Haren, Kiko Calero, Daric Barton for Mark Mulder

    That's one of the best SP in baseball, a very very good RP, and one of the best prospects in baseball that's the equal that Votto is now. All these guys were the top Cards prospects and all would eventually be cheap for a long time.
    Another parallel.... Mulder had been injured the season before the trade (like Bedard) and was considered one of the best SP in baseball (like Bedard). Both had 2 years left. However Mulder got hurt after his 1st season, and hasn't done anything afterwards. This trade was essentially....

    3 years of Haren (which were all better than Mulder) AND
    4 years of Calero
    6 years of Barton
    6 years of Gonzalez
    6 years of Carter
    6 years of Cunningham
    6 years of Anderson
    6 years of Smith
    6 years of Eveland

    Some of these guys you don't know, but the point is that the A's got better production from just 1 SP than Mulder, and got a potential additional 46 years of decent production.
    Yes, I am familiar with that trade. In hindsight, yes it favored the A's in the end.

    However the Cards did get this out of Mulder before he was injured:

    Code:
    2005 27 STL NL  16   8  32  32   3   2   0  0  205.0  212   90   83  19   70  111   9   9   868   1   0  3.64  4.23  116 1.376
    Would you take that if he had been able to repeat (again barring injury)? Absolutely.

    Injuries are unpredicable and can happen to prospects and veterns alike.

    Regarding what Jocketty gave up:

    Haren was highly regarded and definitely one of the top 2 Cardinal SP prospects at that time. To the Cardinals he was equivalent to Bailey or Cueto, however in comparison to the entire league he just a notch below.

    Calero was an older RP prospect who was far from irreplacable. After two solid years with Oakland, he is now wearing down and has lost his luster.

    Barton was well thought of B-type catcher prospect. He was later converted to 1B and has looked solid. However, it took him 4 years to look similar to Votto.

    If we were to make up an equivalent trade with Reds players it might be like this:

    Bailey, Bray/Belisle, Danny Dorn for Eric Bedard.

    Are you saying you wouldn't do that in a heartbeat? I would.
    Pathei mathos...

  8. #52
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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    Please let me know if I'm analyzing this wrong:

    Jocketty was over a proven winner in St. Louis. He also had a payroll of $120 million. He prefers veterans that cost much more than prospects. That seems at odds with the Cincinnati model. Also, it seems to me that with $120 million payroll, you SHOULD have a winner every year.

    Given the fact that Cincinnati doesn't have the revenue of St. Louis, does Jocketty have the experience to build a winner when not relying on expensive veterans?

  9. #53
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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by durl View Post
    Please let me know if I'm analyzing this wrong:

    Jocketty was over a proven winner in St. Louis. He also had a payroll of $120 million. He prefers veterans that cost much more than prospects. That seems at odds with the Cincinnati model. Also, it seems to me that with $120 million payroll, you SHOULD have a winner every year.

    Given the fact that Cincinnati doesn't have the revenue of St. Louis, does Jocketty have the experience to build a winner when not relying on expensive veterans?
    The Cards only had that payroll after several years of success and fan support. If the Reds experience the same, the fans will show up and the payroll will go up.
    Pathei mathos...

  10. #54
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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    I really don't care that I went all-in with a 2/7 offsuit as long as I won the hand. Surely this method will work again next hand...
    Horrible analogy. Jocketty compiled a World Series team through dealing his team's prospects for proven commodities. Rolen, Edmonds, Mulder, and even Larry Walker were all acquired by Jocketty through his trades, which eventually netted him a World Series Championship, which is the ultimate goal in the end. And to go on and say he won the World Series by luck is complete hogwash and drivel.
    That hit was plenty fair. Atleast by a quarter of an inch.
    -Steve Stone

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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by mlbfan30 View Post
    The great part about your statements is that there were no top prospects. The Cards system didn't have any to trade to begin with. To say he didn't give up anything good might be "correct" but there is a reason for that.
    The Cards have produced nothing, and Jockety is the souce of that with his horrible drafting and development.

    Obviously Pujols is the exception. If it weren't pure luck signing for the 13th round pick because some scout really liked him, Jocketty would be a nobody. He would have been fired a LONG time ago.
    Braden Looper
    Adam Kennedy
    J.D. Drew
    Daric Barton
    Colby Rasmus
    Rick Ankeil
    Xavier Nady (did not sign)
    Jack Wilson
    Chris Duncan
    Coco Crisp
    Albert Pujols
    Yadier Molina
    Danny Haren
    Skip Schumaker
    Brad Thompson
    Brendan Ryan
    Anthony Reyes

    All Drafted by Jocketty form 1996 to 2005. 17 major leagues who will play or who have played major roles for their team. That is two more then the Twins have drafted, and they are considered to be one of the best drafting organizations. And it is close to twice as many as the Reds have drafted.

    To say "The Cards have produced nothing, and Jockety is the souce of that with his horrible drafting and development," is flat out wrong.

    Yes, he does favor veterans, but he does not have a history, except for the Mulder trade, of trading quality prospects for veterans. And Mulder helped them win the division and win 100 games in the one year that he was healthy. If Mulder stays healthy, it is a good trade for everyone.

    Jocketty has a history of developing a strong game plan for each season, and following through on it. That is why the Cardinals were in contention 8 out of the 12 years he was GM, and they had a ten year period of only one losing season.

  12. #56
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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    Daric Barton is going to be given an opportunity this year to see what he's got...
    thanks, I also came up with Cocco Crisp and Jack Wilson. Still that is not that many in twelve years.

  13. #57
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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by isaiahbarney View Post
    The Cards only had that payroll after several years of success and fan support. If the Reds experience the same, the fans will show up and the payroll will go up.
    Thank You !

  14. #58
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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxilon View Post
    Horrible analogy. Jocketty compiled a World Series team through dealing his team's prospects for proven commodities. Rolen, Edmonds, Mulder, and even Larry Walker were all acquired by Jocketty through his trades, which eventually netted him a World Series Championship, which is the ultimate goal in the end. And to go on and say he won the World Series by luck is complete hogwash and drivel.
    yeah he won the World Series becuase of luck. His team was probably the 8th best team in the playoffs that year...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  15. #59
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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Braden Looper
    Adam Kennedy
    J.D. Drew
    Daric Barton
    Colby Rasmus
    Rick Ankeil
    Xavier Nady (did not sign)
    Jack Wilson
    Chris Duncan
    Coco Crisp
    Albert Pujols
    Yadier Molina
    Danny Haren
    Skip Schumaker
    Brad Thompson
    Brendan Ryan
    Anthony Reyes

    All Drafted by Jocketty form 1996 to 2005. 17 major leagues who will play or who have played major roles for their team. That is two more then the Twins have drafted, and they are considered to be one of the best drafting organizations. And it is close to twice as many as the Reds have drafted.

    To say "The Cards have produced nothing, and Jockety is the souce of that with his horrible drafting and development," is flat out wrong.

    Yes, he does favor veterans, but he does not have a history, except for the Mulder trade, of trading quality prospects for veterans. And Mulder helped them win the division and win 100 games in the one year that he was healthy. If Mulder stays healthy, it is a good trade for everyone.

    Jocketty has a history of developing a strong game plan for each season, and following through on it. That is why the Cardinals were in contention 8 out of the 12 years he was GM, and they had a ten year period of only one losing season.
    I'm not ready to say those last 4 have played "major roles" on a ML team...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  16. #60
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    Re: Krivsky On Way Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    yeah he won the World Series becuase of luck. His team was probably the 8th best team in the playoffs that year...
    Yeah, but they were the best team in 2004 and lost in the World Series to the Red Sox, so I guess it evens out.

    Going to the playoffs 7 out of 12 years,with two 100 wins season, and two trips the the Series is not luck.


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