Jocketty Impact - Trades Revisited?

[hippie07]

I know there's a lengthy thread about the merits of Jocketty's hiring, but I thought it would be neat to flesh out some specific things Jocketty might add to the organization... will negotiations be strengthened now that Jocketty's on board?

I got 3 things that go toward answering this question out of reading the other thread:
1) He's a good baseball mind that will add to the creditability of the organization
2) He's shrewd at making trades (for the most part)
3) He's more likely to dip into FA

What would you like to see explored/revisited now that Jocketty's on board...???

Personally, I'd love to see us work something out w/ the Giants they seem to be a perfect fit for us. I know they are looking for corner infield help and we have young corner infielders w/ tremendous upside that would really meet their needs if they are looking to rebuild.

I would try to acquire Cain or Lincecum ... I think Cain, in particular, could really solidify our rotation and give us what we need to be a real contender.

I'd give up: Votto, EdE, Roenicke, and Belisle/Maloney for Cain.

I know its alot, but it would solidify our rotation for 2008 and not give up on the future (allows us to keep Bailey, Cueto, and Volquez). Kepp/Freel could keep 3b warm for Todd Frazier who will hopefully be ready by 2009 and Hatte/Kepp/A. Phillips or an Ensberg acquisition could hold down 1b.... but, I'm not too worried about 1b, it seems like it might be a fairly easy hole to fill competently.

A rotation of: Harang, Cain, Arroyo, Bailey, Volquez would be sweet!

[Unassisted]

Walt should have a good handle on where the riches are in the St. Louis farm system, as well as the minimum asking price to part with them. Maybe he can help Wayne pry the hidden gems loose from there?

[harangatang]

Walt should have a good handle on where the riches are in the St. Louis farm system, as well as the minimum asking price to part with them. Maybe he can help Wayne pry the hidden gems loose from there?

That's an interesting thought, i.e., maybe there's another 13th rounder out there who won't make the big club and come out of nowhere.

[PuffyPig]

Walt should have a good handle on where the riches are in the St. Louis farm system, as well as the minimum asking price to part with them. Maybe he can help Wayne pry the hidden gems loose from there?

I wouldn't use the word "riches" and the "St. Louis farm system" in the same sentence unless you are talking about Rasmus. It's a huge drop off after him.

[hippie07]

I wouldn't use the word "riches" and the "St. Louis farm system" in the same sentence unless you are talking about Rasmus. It's a huge drop off after him.

Well, I think that's where the "hidden gems" part comes in... that being said.. I sincerly doubt the Cards would trade w/ us for specifically that reason unless someone's DFA'd or whatever.

[Tom Servo]

I wonder if Jocketty will carry over his methods of finding starting pitching on the cheap, as it's hard to say if they will work without supposed miracle worker Dave Duncan.

[RedsManRick]

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62580

A handy reference for Cardinals activity from 1999-2007.

[Mario-Rijo]

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62580

A handy reference for Cardinals activity from 1999-2007.

One major thing that stuck out too me on that was Run Prevention and the neccessity of a good defensive team. I always felt that was the biggest difference in the Cards and ourselves. You can hope for pitchers to have a good year but if you don't put a solid defense behind them all you are going to do is hope. Every guy in the rotation can't be a power arm (they cost too much) who misses a lot of bats. So you are going to have to rely on the defense of your club more often than not, and this defense is below avg in more places than it isn't.

Hopefully Walt backs Krivsky big time on this point and stresses the importance of it's place in winning to Bob. And therefore they can do something about it, like dealing Jr for whatever you can get that will help. Jr isn't the only problem but he's a big one and people constantly underscore just how big a difference fixing one deficiency can be. Replacing Jr. with Bruce in RF and the corresponding moves to boot will go along way in preventing runs.

And if you deal Griffey now you can get something reasonable for him in return nothing of major impact but something that will give you a positive contribution. Of course he holds all the cards so it's largely moot this year.

[redsmetz]

Hippie07 wrote: I'd give up: Votto, EdE, Roenicke, and Belisle/Maloney for Cain.

Not to sidetrack the discussion, but why do the suggestions always have us giving up such depth for one player? I'm not saying Cain wouldn't be a good acquisition, but you're talking about giving up our starting 3rd baseman, our presumed starting 1st baseman, our present 3rd start and our present #3 starter. I understand you need to give something to get something, but it seems like nearly every proposed trade has the other team backing up their truck to our loading dock and driving off with a haul.

[hippie07]

Hippie07 wrote: I'd give up: Votto, EdE, Roenicke, and Belisle/Maloney for Cain.

Not to sidetrack the discussion, but why do the suggestions always have us giving up such depth for one player? I'm not saying Cain wouldn't be a good acquisition, but you're talking about giving up our starting 3rd baseman, our presumed starting 1st baseman, our present 3rd start and our present #3 starter. I understand you need to give something to get something, but it seems like nearly every proposed trade has the other team backing up their truck to our loading dock and driving off with a haul.

Votto and EdE are not as valuable to the team as would be a a #2/3 starter because we can formidably replace them ... Roenicke is a nice reliever prospect, but not really a whole lot to give up... I'm not a fan of Belisle ... he's #3 only on our squad , a 5 on alotta teams... he might improve, but I think realistically he'll settle in around a #4 w/ his inconsistency and injury problems, I'm just not a fan .... he or Maloney would be sweetener for the Giants. I mean, Cain is projected to be their #1 starter, so it would take alot to land him ... if it's even possible .... It's just the Reds and Giants match up really well as trade partners... from an outsiders point of view at least. So, I just think they'd be the perfect way to land what we want w/o hurting us.

O's want: Bailey, Cueto, Votto, and EdE for Bedard ....
Cain, although not as dominant as Bedard, would probably fit our needs just as well, and the Giants need what we have..

I wouldnt blink at a Votto, EdE, Roenick, Belisle/Maloney deal...it would be like a no-brainer.

[mth123]

Votto and EdE are not as valuable to the team as would be a a #2/3 starter because we can formidably replace them ... Roenicke is a nice reliever prospect, but not really a whole lot to give up... I'm not a fan of Belisle ... he's #3 only on our squad , a 5 on alotta teams... he might improve, but I think realistically he'll settle in around a #4 w/ his inconsistency and injury problems, I'm just not a fan .... he or Maloney would be sweetener for the Giants. I mean, Cain is projected to be their #1 starter, so it would take alot to land him ... if it's even possible .... It's just the Reds and Giants match up really well as trade partners... from an outsiders point of view at least. So, I just think they'd be the perfect way to land what we want w/o hurting us.

O's want: Bailey, Cueto, Votto, and EdE for Bedard ....
Cain, although not as dominant as Bedard, would probably fit our needs just as well, and the Giants need what we have..

I wouldnt blink at a Votto, EdE, Roenick, Belisle/Maloney deal...it would be like a no-brainer.

I think the Giants are a good target as well. I don't think that Cain or Lincecum will be available and Zito is too priciey so that leaves Lowry, Correia, Sanchez, Pereira, as starter candidates on SF. The Giants are rumored to be wanting to move Lowry but if I were the Reds I'd pass on him and focus on the combination of Correia and Sanchez. I think Correia is a number three hiding in the role of a number 5. He's about to hit his age 27 season and this site run by Redszoner 11BarryLarkin11 gives a good description of him.

http://redlegsbaseball.blogspot.com/...rreia-rhs.html

Sanchez is a hard throwing lefty who turned 25 in November and would join Bailey, Cueto, and Volquez as high ceiling reinforcements.

I also think that EdE should be the top trade bait since the Reds have depth at 3B in the system and Keppinger and Freel to put there for now. It would also provide a clear lead-off possibility and head-off any thoughts of blocking Bruce with a CF combo of Hopper/Freel for the sake of getting a "traditional" lead-off type in the line-up. The Giants would probably want some pitching back so I'd include Maloney (Sanchez is a clear upgrade as far as up and coming LH pitching goes) and base the deal on EdE and Maloney for Correia and Sanchez. If it takes a little more I start with Stubbs. EdE, Maloney and Stubbs should be enough. The Giants get a real live young major league position player with room to improve, a pitcher back to maintain some depth and a 5 tool OF prospect who may end-up in the top 2 or 3 prospects in their system. I think its a good fit.

Correia would be a better option for 2008 than any of the Free Agents, is on the upswing and could be here for multiple years. Sanchez would fill a need in long relief and be ready to step into the rotation should some one falter and could possibly force his way in down the line. Bailey and Cueto could stay in AAA, continue their development and be options number 7 and 8 should the Reds need rotation reinforcements. It would be nice to be 8 deep with legitimate options with the high ceiling future guys not being rushed for a change. Add that the system wouldn't need to be gutted to get there and it makes a lot more sense to me than most of the alternatives.

[bucksfan2]

Votto and EdE are not as valuable to the team as would be a a #2/3 starter because we can formidably replace them ... Roenicke is a nice reliever prospect, but not really a whole lot to give up... I'm not a fan of Belisle ... he's #3 only on our squad , a 5 on alotta teams... he might improve, but I think realistically he'll settle in around a #4 w/ his inconsistency and injury problems, I'm just not a fan .... he or Maloney would be sweetener for the Giants. I mean, Cain is projected to be their #1 starter, so it would take alot to land him ... if it's even possible .... It's just the Reds and Giants match up really well as trade partners... from an outsiders point of view at least. So, I just think they'd be the perfect way to land what we want w/o hurting us.

O's want: Bailey, Cueto, Votto, and EdE for Bedard ....
Cain, although not as dominant as Bedard, would probably fit our needs just as well, and the Giants need what we have..

I wouldnt blink at a Votto, EdE, Roenick, Belisle/Maloney deal...it would be like a no-brainer.

I am glad you aren't running the club. If you trade both Encarnacion and Votto you are giving up basically the future of your offense. Combine Votto, Encarnacion with Bruce and Phillips and they are the only legitimate offensive players that you could argure are going to be with the club over the next 4-5 years. There is no offensive depth in the system after Bruce and Votto that has even had any success at the AA level.

Again you can build your team around pitching, pitching, and more pitching but it really won't matter much if you can't score more runs than your opponent.

[hippie07]

I am glad you aren't running the club. If you trade both Encarnacion and Votto you are giving up basically the future of your offense. Combine Votto, Encarnacion with Bruce and Phillips and they are the only legitimate offensive players that you could argure are going to be with the club over the next 4-5 years. There is no offensive depth in the system after Bruce and Votto that has even had any success at the AA level.

Again you can build your team around pitching, pitching, and more pitching but it really won't matter much if you can't score more runs than your opponent.

I think the feeling's mutual...I'm glad you aren't running the team either. You obviously have no concept of our system. Todd Frazier is a beast at SS/3b.... he was drafted from college so he's mature for an A-baller and there's no reason he won't make it to AAA by the end of the season, therefore he should be ready to contribute in 09. Also, there's no reason to believe the Reds won't make a valiant effort to re-sign Dunn, if not, they can use that 15mil on offense from the FA market.

Bruce
Phillips
Frazier
Dunn/or replacement
Griffey? / or replacement

There's no reason to fear that we won't have an adequate offense. Especially if we acquire pitching at a cheap rate, we can spend for what we need.

The Reds have been offense-oriented in the recent past... and gone nowhere... I think it's time we acquire adequate to good pitching alongside adequate offense....

[princeton]

You obviously have no concept of our system. Todd Frazier is a beast at SS/3b.... he was drafted from college so he's mature for an A-baller and there's no reason he won't make it to AAA by the end of the season, therefore he should be ready to contribute in 09

for some reason, this makes me want to channel Keith Jackson:

"whoa Nellie!"

"Katie, bar the door!"

by all means challenge the hitters. But be careful about developing a major league strategy around the Mike Franks of your farm system.

[REDREAD]

I would try to acquire Cain or Lincecum ... I think Cain, in particular, could really solidify our rotation and give us what we need to be a real contender.

I would have loved to pick up Cain. At one time, he might've been available for Bruce, but it appears that ship has sailed since they signed a FA CF. In fact, after the Giants signed there CF, the SF GM said that Cain and Lincecum are off the table

And yes, I would've done Bruce for Cain in a heartbeat.
6 years of Bruce for 4 of Cain is a steal in my opinion, given what this Reds team needs.. (Of course, then I would've kept Hamilton).