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Thread: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

  1. #61
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Dunn:
    Bases empty OPS= .883
    RISP OPS= .884
    Men-On OPS= .913

    I nominate Dunn for Mr. Anti-Clutch. Anyone second the motion?
    You forgot

    Close & Late: .870
    Tie Game: .912
    Within 1 R: .893
    Within 2 R: .907
    Within 3 R: .917
    Within 4 R: .913
    Margin 5+ R: .823

    Clearly he's at his worst when we need him the most and he freezes (1 run game) and when the game is completely out of reach and he stops caring (5+ run game).
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  3. #62
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    If walking is clutch, then consider Dunn as Miles Davis.
    Nice Billy Madison reference. :dancingco

  4. #63
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Cluch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I'm with you 100%. Sure ED's bomb was clutch. It all depends on the situation. That's why I think clutch is very hard to quantify. Watching someone's performance on a day to day basis is a better way to determine clutchness. That or watching Sportscenter.

    As much as we would like to try to measure everything, I think clutch play, is really difficult to define and therefore difficult to measure. I think it exists and I think in certain situations some guys go up there so tight that they can't perform to there normal levels while other guys go up there like they would if it were the 1st inning of a game. And there might be others who go out there more focused than they would in an ordinary situation.

    Sometimes you can only say something is clutch after the game is over. An RBI single in the 5th inning may not seem a big deal at the time but if that's the eventual winning run, it was a big deal in hindsight.
    Last edited by Chip R; 01-16-2008 at 06:41 PM.
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  5. #64
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Cluch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    As much as we would like to try to measure everything, I think clutch play, is really difficult to define and therefore difficult to measure. I think it exists and I think in certain situations some guys go up there so tight that they can't perform to there normal levels while other guys go up there like they would if it were the 1st inning of a game. And there might be others who go out there more focused than they would in an ordinary situation.

    Sometimes you can only say something is clutch after the game is over. An RBI single in the 5th inning may not seem a big deal at the time but if that's the eventual winning run, it was a big deal in hindsight.
    That's an important distinction though. Clutch isn't something you are, it's something you've done. Asking for people who are clutch suggests that people themselves are clutch, as if clutch were some ability to come through more often than others in those situations.

    It's a really big step from "that was a really clutch at bat" to "that guy is clutch" (and therefore more likely than others to perform well in other clutch situations).
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  6. #65
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Here's a question. It's the most important at bat in the most important game of the season. Who do you want batting, your best hitter or your best "clutch" guy? If they are one in the same, what's the point of arguing about clutch?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Here's a question. It's the most important at bat in the most important game of the season. Who do you want batting, your best hitter or your best "clutch" guy? If they are one in the same, what's the point of arguing about clutch?
    Depends on what you need.

    A base hit? Probably not someone who doesn't get a lot of hits.

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Cluch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    As much as we would like to try to measure everything, I think clutch play, is really difficult to define and therefore difficult to measure. I think it exists and I think in certain situations some guys go up there so tight that they can't perform to there normal levels while other guys go up there like they would if it were the 1st inning of a game. And there might be others who go out there more focused than they would in an ordinary situation.

    Sometimes you can only say something is clutch after the game is over. An RBI single in the 5th inning may not seem a big deal at the time but if that's the eventual winning run, it was a big deal in hindsight.
    I think clutch exists when there is pressure on that situation. Maybe in retrospect that AB in the 5th was the most important in the game, but there won't be too much pressure on that AB unless it's an extremely important game.

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Depends on what you need.

    A base hit? Probably not someone who doesn't get a lot of hits.
    Since "base hit" is so vague, how about someone who doesn't make a lot of outs?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Cluch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I think clutch exists when there is pressure on that situation. Maybe in retrospect that AB in the 5th was the most important in the game, but there won't be too much pressure on that AB unless it's an extremely important game.
    How about extra innings? Every at bat then would be considered a pressure one wouldn't they?

    What might be a cutoff level of performance in such situations for a player to be considered a clutch player?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Since "base hit" is so vague, how about someone who doesn't make a lot of outs?
    No, I think a base hit is actually quite specific.

  12. #71
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Cluch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    How about extra innings? Every at bat then would be considered a pressure one wouldn't they?

    What might be a cutoff level of performance in such situations for a player to be considered a clutch player?
    EI could be a clutch situation if the game means something. But if the game is on September 29th between two teams a combined 50 games out of the race I would say it's not really a clutch situation.

    All about facts and circumstances, my man.

    Regarding a cutoff level of performance, I'm not going to bother.

  13. #72
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    No, I think a base hit is actually quite specific.
    No it's not....there are lots of kinds and it's obvious that not all are equal. Are you arguing that you'd want the guy with the highest batting average?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  14. #73
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Cluch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    That's an important distinction though. Clutch isn't something you are, it's something you've done. Asking for people who are clutch suggests that people themselves are clutch, as if clutch were some ability to come through more often than others in those situations.

    It's a really big step from "that was a really clutch at bat" to "that guy is clutch" (and therefore more likely than others to perform well in other clutch situations).
    I dunno I feel "I am clutch"! I have always performed whatever job I have done best when the pressure was on. I have always worked hard but when needed I have felt that I was able to really focus in on what I needed to do and take it to another level if you will. A level in which it would take too much energy to do it at constantly. That might seem laughable to some who don't feel the same but to those who have done the same, know what I mean. And I haven't always been the best at what I did but when the heat was on I rose to the occassion and the best didn't always do the same. It comes from an extreme competitive desire to tap into something that is a bit unknown.

    And that's why I believe it exists in baseball as well.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  15. #74
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    No it's not....there are lots of kinds and it's obvious that not all are equal. Are you arguing that you'd want the guy with the highest batting average?
    I don't know if he is saying that, but I think he wants a well rounded hitter in that situation, as opposed to an Adam Dunn type who won't hit for average at all, but still get on base and slug well. He would probably rather see a .300/.400/.500 guy than a .250/.400/.500 guy, which is what I am picking up from him.

  16. #75
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Cluch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    EI could be a clutch situation if the game means something. But if the game is on September 29th between two teams a combined 50 games out of the race I would say it's not really a clutch situation.
    So the Reds haven't actually had a clutch situation since 1999?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    All about facts and circumstances, my man.
    Given such a narrow definition of clutch, I'd suggest there isn't enough facts and circumstances to even entertain a discussion about how to measure clutch.

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Regarding a cutoff level of performance, I'm not going to bother.
    No disrespect intended but that's a pretty strange position to have since clutch would presumably be contingent upon performance.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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