Turn Off Ads?
Page 7 of 10 FirstFirst ... 345678910 LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 148

Thread: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

  1. #91
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    18,950

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Cluch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Then maybe then I don't view Dunn as being clutch.

    But instead of looking for the conspiracy, look at what I am posting.
    I have and you can't really define clutch (except that it doesn't involve walking) but you'll know it when you see it and it's worth some sum of money.

    Accept you have defined it in the sense that you've stated that bizarro clutch looks something like this:

    Bases empty OPS= .883
    RISP OPS= .884
    Men-On OPS= .913

    Close & Late: .870
    Tie Game: .912
    Within 1 R: .893
    Within 2 R: .907
    Within 3 R: .917
    Within 4 R: .913
    Margin 5+ R: .823

    Extra innings: .373/.513/.847 OPS: 1.360


    What's really my point? Clutch is fantasy and each one of us has our own version. When the game is actually played though, I go with the most productive hitter-every time. And that's both a useful and practical approach to "clutch" situations.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #92
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,297

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Cluch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I have and you can't really define clutch (except that it doesn't involve walking) but you'll know it when you see it and it's worth some sum of money.
    I defined clutch. It is succeeding in a pressure situation. I said it is tough to measure by one stat.

    If you count a walk as a success in a pressure situation, then so be it. I think a hit is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Accept you have defined it in the sense that you've stated that bizarro clutch looks something like this:

    Bases empty OPS= .883
    RISP OPS= .884
    Men-On OPS= .913

    Close & Late: .870
    Tie Game: .912
    Within 1 R: .893
    Within 2 R: .907
    Within 3 R: .917
    Within 4 R: .913
    Margin 5+ R: .823

    Extra innings: .373/.513/.847 OPS: 1.360
    Again...walks aren't my cup of tea in pressure situations. I'd much rather see a hit in those instances.

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    What's really my point? Clutch is fantasy and each one of us has our own version. When the game is actually played though, I go with the most productive hitter-every time. And that's both a useful and practical approach to "clutch" situations.
    To each their own.

  4. #93
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    18,950

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Cluch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I defined clutch. It is succeeding in a pressure situation. I said it is tough to measure by one stat.
    You haven't defined clutch if you can't define succeeding. You haven't really even defined "pressure situation".
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  5. #94
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,297

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Cluch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    You haven't defined clutch if you can't define succeeding. You haven't really even defined "pressure situation".
    Buy a dictionary.

  6. #95
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    18,950

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Cluch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Buy a dictionary.
    But that's the rub-the definition of success in the Oxford English Dictionary doesn't really inform your definition and it's your definition that's needed to understand your definition of clutch.

    As it is, you've essentially defined being clutch as having successes that can't be measured in situations that can't be specifically defined.

    I'm wondering how any player couldn't be described as clutch (or brow beat for not being clutch).
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  7. #96
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    9,365

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Cluch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    But that's the rub-the definition of success in the Oxford English Dictionary doesn't really inform your definition and it's your definition that's needed to understand your definition of clutch.

    As it is, you've essentially defined being clutch as having successes that can't be measured in situations that can't be specifically defined.

    I'm wondering how any player couldn't be described as clutch (or brow beat for not being clutch).
    I feel that because Adam Dunn strikes out so much he feels more pressure than the normal player in "clutch" situations, which I define by situations that make me feel more nervous when watching games. Due to the number of games I've watched, I feel that Adam Dunn is actually more "clutch" than David Ortiz, who's a better hitter. Because Ortiz is a better hitter, I think he feels less pressure in situations I feel are less important because I'm not a Red Sox fan. Also, I feel that pitchers who face David Ortiz are just less "clutch" when facing him in those situations than pitchers who face Adam Dunn in situations I do care about.

    In short, after watching a goodly number of games for both players, I have to conclude that Adam Dunn is about three times more "clutch" than David Ortiz because Dunn feels more pressure and faces more "clutch" pitchers.

    It's really the only reasonable conclusion.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch thatís over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.Ē
    --Ted Williams

  8. #97
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,297

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Cluch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    But that's the rub-the definition of success in the Oxford English Dictionary doesn't really inform your definition and it's your definition that's needed to understand your definition of clutch.

    As it is, you've essentially defined being clutch as having successes that can't be measured in situations that can't be specifically defined.

    I'm wondering how any player couldn't be described as clutch (or brow beat for not being clutch).
    Let's call Robert Stack.

  9. #98
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    7,441

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Actual definition of "clutch"....

    The guy who comes through in a pinch in the game you just watched. His clutchness ends at the completion of that game and the search for a new clutch player resumes at the begining of the next game.


    I don't care if a guy drives in a run by leaning into a pitch or somehow tricking the pitcher into a balk. I mean, I know walks aren't manly and all, but if it gets the job done it's everybit as good as a scrappy sac fly or single up the middle.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  10. #99
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,297

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Actual definition of "clutch"....

    The guy who comes through in a pinch in the game you just watched. His clutchness ends at the completion of that game and the search for a new clutch player resumes at the begining of the next game.


    I don't care if a guy drives in a run by leaning into a pitch or somehow tricking the pitcher into a balk. I mean, I know walks aren't manly and all, but if it gets the job done it's everybit as good as a scrappy sac fly or single up the middle.
    And someone who finds themselves meeting your definition of "clutch" in a somewhat consistent fashion might find themselves being described as a "clutch player" or someone you want in the middle of a clutch situation.

    However, I can't see a walk being everybit as good as a sac fly or a single in most clutch situations. If the bases are loaded in a tight situation (tied or down one) and you battle a pitcher for 9 or 10 pitches and work a walk, that would probably be described as clutch and, possibly, just as good as a single. Even better than a sac fly.

    If there are men on 2nd and 3rd and the pitcher throws 4 straight pitches in the dirt, I don't see that walk being described as "clutch" nor do I see it being just as good as a single or possibly a sac fly, depending on the situation. In fact, it might even be worse than a sac fly if the score was tied or if you were down one run.

    Hence the struggles for defining a clutch situation or a clutch performance.

  11. #100
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    7,441

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    And someone who finds themselves meeting your definition of "clutch" in a somewhat consistent fashion might find themselves being described as a "clutch player" or someone you want in the middle of a clutch situation.
    Nope. Clutch only attaches in the context of a single game. Since it is so vague, so hard to quantify and usually based on erronous perceptions, a clutch player ends being so at the end of 27 outs. That you made the big play today, in no way means you'll make it again tomorow.

    If a player is involved in clutch plays in "somewhat consistent" basis I'd lean towards him being "lucky" not "clutch". Now, if a player can quantifably be shown to produce some specific outcome in pressure situations at a level above and beyond his normal production, and can be shown to reproduce said skill, then and only then is he "clutch".

    Problem is focusing on the how of the outcome. I don't care if its a walk, balk, or the stadium expodes and the other team forfits. As long as said player does *something* that causes a run to score/not score he has succeeded in being clutch. That a home run is so much more studly than a measly walk is 100% irrlevant to clutchness.

    There are no degrees of clutch-ness. A specific play was either clutch or not.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  12. #101
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,297

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Nope. Clutch only attaches in the context of a single game. Since it is so vague, so hard to quantify and usually based on erronous perceptions, a clutch player ends being so at the end of 27 outs. That you made the big play today, in no way means you'll make it again tomorow.

    If a player is involved in clutch plays in "somewhat consistent" basis I'd lean towards him being "lucky" not "clutch". Now, if a player can quantifably be shown to produce some specific outcome in pressure situations at a level above and beyond his normal production, and can be shown to reproduce said skill, then and only then is he "clutch".

    Problem is focusing on the how of the outcome. I don't care if its a walk, balk, or the stadium expodes and the other team forfits. As long as said player does *something* that causes a run to score/not score he has succeeded in being clutch. That a home run is so much more studly than a measly walk is 100% irrlevant to clutchness.

    There are no degrees of clutch-ness. A specific play was either clutch or not.
    Clutch post.

    I totally respect your opinion and position in this discussion. I think you have valid points, but I obviously still side with myself.

  13. #102
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    7,441

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Clutch post.

    I totally respect your opinion and position in this discussion. I think you have valid points, but I obviously still side with myself.
    Hey...I expect nothing less! hahahahahah

    Nah, look, I'd much rather have A-Rod or Ortiz at the plate with the game on the line than Juan Castro or David Ross. But that's because they out produce Juan at the plate all the time, every game. That they happen to come through in the bottom of the 9th now and again is just a matter of coincidence than any particular skill, IMO.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  14. #103
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,297

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Hey...I expect nothing less! hahahahahah

    Nah, look, I'd much rather have A-Rod or Ortiz at the plate with the game on the line than Juan Castro or David Ross. But that's because they out produce Juan at the plate all the time, every game. That they happen to come through in the bottom of the 9th now and again is just a matter of coincidence than any particular skill, IMO.
    I think there are some people in my neck of the woods who wouldn't want to see ARod up in the bottom of the 9th in a tight situation.

  15. #104
    High five! nate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Irvine, CA
    Posts
    6,976

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    If there are men on 2nd and 3rd and the pitcher throws 4 straight pitches in the dirt, I don't see that walk being described as "clutch" nor do I see it being just as good as a single or possibly a sac fly, depending on the situation. In fact, it might even be worse than a sac fly if the score was tied or if you were down one run.
    Not being snarky but, isn't that clutch too? Isn't that your reputation as being a dangerous hitter preceding you? Why is the batter suddenly not clutch if he doesn't get anything hit? How is that a mark against him?

    As far as "not being good as a single or sac fly", I agree but it's not as bad as making an out or outs.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  16. #105
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,297

    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    Not being snarky but, isn't that clutch too? Isn't that your reputation as being a dangerous hitter preceding you? Why is the batter suddenly not clutch if he doesn't get anything hit? How is that a mark against him?

    As far as "not being good as a single or sac fly", I agree but it's not as bad as making an out or outs.
    Clutch is actually doing something.

    It's isn't a mark against him, it is not getting a clutch mark. There's a difference.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25