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Thread: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

  1. #106
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I think there are some people in my neck of the woods who wouldn't want to see ARod up in the bottom of the 9th in a tight situation.
    And there are some people who think that the earth is flat and that we faked the moon landing. To each his own I suppose.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  3. #107
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    And there are some people who think that the earth is flat and that we faked the moon landing. To each his own I suppose.
    'VIEW' RINGS 'BELLE
    By DON KAPLAN

    Sherri's race mistake.
    January 15, 2008 -- 'VIEW" co-host Sherri Shepherd went flat- earth again yesterday. Seems she forgot that legendary soul singer Patti LaBelle is black.

    During yesterday's talk-around - the first few minutes of "The View" where the show's co-hosts chat about the news of the day - Shepherd mentioned that over the weekend she had attended the Stellar Awards, an awards show for gospel singers. At the show, she met Shirley Caesar, another legendary singer, often referred to as the First Lady of Gospel Music.

    "There is a picture of me with Shirley Caesar, who is like the black Patti LaBelle," bragged Shepherd.

    There was a second of stunned silence before her co-hosts, Whoopi Goldberg, Joy Behar and even Barbara Walters piled on.

    "Patti LaBelle is black!" said Golberg.

    "But this one is blacker," joked Behar.

    "It's a good thing you're not running for office," said Walters. "Because you'd be considered bigoted right now."

    "I'd be in so much trouble," squeaked an embarrassed Shepherd.

    Shepherd, who replaced Star Jones this year, has been dropping increasingly strange comments since she began appearing on the show in September.

    In one instance, she insisted Christianity was older than ancient Greece, and even Judaism. Earlier, she said she didn't know if the world was flat or round.

  4. #108
    Haunted by walks
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    The problem with the clutch argument every time is that it's the most anecdotal, least statistical thing in baseball. It's the stories you tell your grandchildren that grow in the telling. Until there's a way to compare one situation with another, and one performance with another, the argument won't solve anything.

    Until then, clutch is just the absence of choke.

  5. #109
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post

    Until then, clutch is just the absence of choke.


    That's still the best description I've seen yet.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  6. #110
    Member blumj's Avatar
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    The Great Clutch Project

    http://tangotiger.net/clutch/

    Tangotiger wants to know who we want up with the game on the line.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

  7. #111
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: The Great Clutch Project

    There needs to be an option worse than "poor" for Juan Castro.

  8. #112
    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: The Great Clutch Project

    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  9. #113
    Member blumj's Avatar
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    Re: The Great Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    Yes, sorry, I guess I should have searched before I started a new thread.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

  10. #114
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    http://sabermetricresearch.blogspot....from-pete.html

    Of the many excellent presentations at last weekend's SABR convention in Cleveland, one of my favorites was the study by Pete Palmer and Dick Cramer, on clutch hitting. I have to admit that the subject has been done to death (notably by Palmer and Cramer themselves). And there are probably a lot of people like Chris Jaffe, who is "sooooooo very tired of clutch hitting studies."

    So this study could be accused of beating a dead horse – other studies, I think, have already convincingly shown that clutch talent doesn't exist – but, on the other hand, on a controversial issue like clutch, you can never have too much evidence.

    Sample:

    Thus the results of the original study (1) are yet again confirmed, this time by every analysis we can devise and based mostly on fifty seasons of major league play. Over this period there is no convincing evidence that any fluctuation of any batter’s performance in tense situations had any cause beyond random variation. Furthermore, because batting performance is unaffected by game situation overall, there would be no honor in being identified as a clutch hitter. Why shouldn’t a major league batter give his best effort regardless of the game situation?

    The conflict continues between the feeling of tension in critical game situations, expressed even by many of the most experienced and successful major league batters, an the actual outcomes.
    Last edited by westofyou; 07-03-2008 at 03:32 PM.

  11. #115
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Question. Why do we have to put a number on something to validate it?

    There is no doubt in anyone's mind that with the clock winding down you would put the ball in Jordan's hands. We always see the ones he made but what about the ones he missed?

    There is no doubt in my mind that there are players that you do and don't want to face with the game on the line. There are also players who want to be in that situation and ones that dont. I just find it odd that since we can't put a concrete number on a clutch stat that it can't exist.

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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Question. Why do we have to put a number on something to validate it?

    There is no doubt in anyone's mind that with the clock winding down you would put the ball in Jordan's hands. We always see the ones he made but what about the ones he missed?

    There is no doubt in my mind that there are players that you do and don't want to face with the game on the line. There are also players who want to be in that situation and ones that dont. I just find it odd that since we can't put a concrete number on a clutch stat that it can't exist.

    But wouldn't you have wanted the ball in Jordan's hands in the first minute of the game too?

  13. #117
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Question. Why do we have to put a number on something to validate it?
    To separate the stories about Icarus from the ones about Alexander.

  14. #118
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by puca View Post
    But wouldn't you have wanted the ball in Jordan's hands in the first minute of the game too?
    I would want the ball in Jordan's hands as much as possible but when the game is coming down I draw up plays for Jordan to decide the game.

    Thats beside the point because you can't have who you want up in a clutch situation. Its way too hard considering the 4-5 men on your bench are in all reality lesser players than the starting 8. Each manager will tell you the exact player/s he wants up in a crucial situation. He will also tell you the players he doesn't want to face. He will make decisions around that certain player. Maybe its the best or maybe its the one who hits well against your club. Your telling me that in a close game Dusty wouldn't be concerned where Pujols was in the order. He wouldn't manage a little different knowing that if he 1-2-3, 1-2-3 in the 8th and 9th inning that he wouldn't have to face Pujols?

    Look at Big Papi. The guy seems like he continues to come up with big hit after big hit. Is that just him and his game or is that because he is very comfortable in that situation and the pressure doesn't effect him.

  15. #119
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    I would want the ball in Jordan's hands as much as possible but when the game is coming down I draw up plays for Jordan to decide the game.

    Thats beside the point because you can't have who you want up in a clutch situation. Its way too hard considering the 4-5 men on your bench are in all reality lesser players than the starting 8. Each manager will tell you the exact player/s he wants up in a crucial situation. He will also tell you the players he doesn't want to face. He will make decisions around that certain player. Maybe its the best or maybe its the one who hits well against your club. Your telling me that in a close game Dusty wouldn't be concerned where Pujols was in the order. He wouldn't manage a little different knowing that if he 1-2-3, 1-2-3 in the 8th and 9th inning that he wouldn't have to face Pujols?

    Look at Big Papi. The guy seems like he continues to come up with big hit after big hit. Is that just him and his game or is that because he is very comfortable in that situation and the pressure doesn't effect him.
    Of course Pujols and Big Papi are two of the best hitters in the game regardless of the situation.

  16. #120
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Good Thread Idea on the Sun Deck--Clutch Project

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Question. Why do we have to put a number on something to validate it?

    There is no doubt in anyone's mind that with the clock winding down you would put the ball in Jordan's hands. We always see the ones he made but what about the ones he missed?

    There is no doubt in my mind that there are players that you do and don't want to face with the game on the line. There are also players who want to be in that situation and ones that dont. I just find it odd that since we can't put a concrete number on a clutch stat that it can't exist.
    The question is whether the players who you don't want to face with the game on the line are any different than the players you don't want to face at any point in time. The answer is, they aren't. And if they are, it's a preference not rooted in actual performance.

    Michael Jordan wasn't great because he was so good in clutch situations. He was so good in clutch situations because he was Michael Jordan.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.


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