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Thread: I think we should trade palmer

  1. #46
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    If that's true, it's beyond pathetic.
    Not sure on the accuracy of that %, but how many times do you see Chad and Carson arguing on the sideline after an incompletion or an INT?

    Seems there might be some fire as the cause of this smoke.

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  3. #47
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by Bip Roberts View Post
    Terrible year from a terrible QB who cant win any big games and has no team leadership abilities, if we can get like a 6th rounder for him it would be excellent considering the cap space we would save
    I hope you're kidding. I'm not reading any more through this thread than the first post, but I truly, truly hope that you're not serious.

    Kind of hard to be a good QB when you have no RB, whiny receiver's, and an offensive line that's a turnstile.

    Not to mention an awful coaching staff and an impatient fan base.

    Oh, and the worst front office management in football.

    Other than that, his supporting cast was great.

    Put Big Ben on the Bengals and he throws 10 TD's and 30 picks

  4. #48
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by GoReds33 View Post
    I wouldn't. Ben is younger, and had a better statistical season. If anything, they are equals.
    Ben is younger and..... that's about it.

    Comparing Ben to Carson year in and year out you won't find those numbers to be close. Ben has benefitted greatly from one of the best organizations in sports while Carson has languished with the worst franchise in sports.

    No scout or NFL coaching member would take Ben over Carson.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  5. #49
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    Ben is younger and..... that's about it.

    Comparing Ben to Carson year in and year out you won't find those numbers to be close. Ben has benefitted greatly from one of the best organizations in sports while Carson has languished with the worst franchise in sports.

    No scout or NFL coaching member would take Ben over Carson.
    Well said.

  6. #50
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Carson is a top 5 QB.

    Roethlisberger might--MIGHT--be top 20.

    He benefits from all the reasons excellently elucidated by Mr. Cedric.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
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  7. #51
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    Roethlisberger might--MIGHT--be top 20.

    He benefits from all the reasons excellently elucidated by Mr. Cedric.
    Let's not get ahead of ourselves here...
    That hit was plenty fair. Atleast by a quarter of an inch.
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  8. #52
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxilon View Post
    Let's not get ahead of ourselves here...
    After the top five or so Qb's I just don't see any difference. It's the second hardest position to evaluate in all of football and that's why people like Brady/Romo can become pro bowlers and possible HOF's.

    The system is usually the biggest help for a player. Carson has been hindered by an innefficient offense that is obsolete. It's time he gets a system that best maximizes his talent. He needs a system that relies on his great deep accuracy but also allows for ball control when the situation arises. I'm not the only Bengal fan that is sick and tired of the high risk routes that we see on third and 2 or third and 3. It's just like how an NBA guard needs a mid range game, Carson needs a TE and players out of the backfield to ease the amount of hits he takes and allows the offense to keep the ball. Our inneficiency on offense the last two years has really hurt the play of the defense also. Offense, Defense, and Special teams all rely on one another to win football games. The Bengals brass has never fully grasped that.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  9. #53
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    Offense, Defense, and Special teams all rely on one another to win football games. The Bengals brass has never fully grasped that.
    See, ced, this is where you lose people like me in your argumentation. It is great to make nice long deadpans of each and every draft pick of the Marvin era, but you are oversimplifying the reasons that the franchise is in its current state and making a reductionist argument that the leadership do not understand the most basic of football principles. This is a fundamental that high school coaches know, perhaps even biddy league (since fans understand it).

    In the practical world of putting together an NFL roster, this is why teams will win or lose football games, but I do not think it is because any of them do not understand the concept of the three primary areas of a football team. What it comes down to is "guns and butter," and right now the Bengals have allocated a lot of resources on the offensive side of the ball and the cheaper D players flamed out either through injury, off-field issues, or a poor draft pick. The special teams suffered due to injury, some flamed draft picks and losing some depth to free agency.
    Last edited by traderumor; 01-24-2008 at 09:22 AM.

  10. #54
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    See, ced, this is where you lose people like me in your argumentation. It is great to make nice long deadpans of each and every draft pick of the Marvin era, but you are oversimplifying the reasons that the franchise is in its current state and making a reductionist argument that the leadership do not understand the most basic of football principles. This is a fundamental that high school coaches know, perhaps even biddy league (since fans understand it).

    In the practical world of putting together an NFL roster, this is why teams will win or lose football games, but I do not think it is because any of them do not understand the concept of the three primary areas of a football team. What it comes down to is "guns and butter," and right now the Bengals have allocated a lot of resources on the offensive side of the ball and the cheaper D players flamed out either through injury, off-field issues, or a poor draft pick. The special teams suffered due to injury, some flamed draft picks and losing some depth to free agency.
    Of course they understand it's importance. They just don't have any idea how to create it and sustain it.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  11. #55
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    Of course they understand it's importance. They just don't have any idea how to create it and sustain it.
    That's not what you said. You said they don't grasp the concept. Which is it?

  12. #56
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    After the top five or so Qb's I just don't see any difference. It's the second hardest position to evaluate in all of football and that's why people like Brady/Romo can become pro bowlers and possible HOF's.

    The system is usually the biggest help for a player. Carson has been hindered by an innefficient offense that is obsolete. It's time he gets a system that best maximizes his talent. He needs a system that relies on his great deep accuracy but also allows for ball control when the situation arises. I'm not the only Bengal fan that is sick and tired of the high risk routes that we see on third and 2 or third and 3. It's just like how an NBA guard needs a mid range game, Carson needs a TE and players out of the backfield to ease the amount of hits he takes and allows the offense to keep the ball. Our inneficiency on offense the last two years has really hurt the play of the defense also. Offense, Defense, and Special teams all rely on one another to win football games. The Bengals brass has never fully grasped that.
    Some of what you say may be true. I especially agree on the TE. But have injuries, and maybe even age in some instances, also played into that "weakening"?

    And while I think there was some sort of "disconnect" between Carson and his receivers not always being on the same page - who do you blame? An individual player(s) or the offensive scheme?

    I don't know what you mean by inefficiency? If one looks at the major offensive stats, from overall offense, completion %, passing yardage total and per game, etc., the Bengals are right there hovering in the top 10.

    What has slid, and again it was due to injury IMO, was in the overall running game where they were bottom tier. If you have trouble running the ball, then the passing game suffers.

    Even in the Give Away/Take Away column they were 6th in the NFL at +6.

    And here is another "trinket" that came to me.....

    If it's going to be contended that it's simply the offensive scheme, meaning the talent is there; then couldn't the same possibly be asserted on the defensive side and why they fired Bresnahan? There is talent there; but the scheme is wrong.

    I will say this - what hurt the Bengals the most this season IMO is not their offense, but their defense. The Bengals scored; but sadly enough, so did their opponent (pts allowed). That is where their emphasis needs to be.

    Their offensive line did a good job in protecting Carson; but a very inconsistent job in opening holes for the running game.

    And on the defensive side, I really think losing Thurman and Pollack hurt them.

    It will be interesting as to what they will draft. LBers? Defensive or offensive linemen?
    Last edited by GAC; 01-24-2008 at 08:46 PM.
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  13. #57
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    That's not what you said. You said they don't grasp the concept. Which is it?
    I'm not trying to flip flop here. In my earlier post I was stating that I believe the Bengals organization doesn't grasp how to allocate their resources to develop a winning team. That isn't even mentioning the fact that Marvin hasn't done even a decent job of constructing the most important part of a football team. He has completely messed up the Oline that was great and hasn't come close to putting together a Dline.

    Anyone with vision could see that the Bengals had issues with the age of Anderson and Braham. Marvin has focused early picks on replacements for each and yet hasn't created any stability. All of these problems come from the basic premise that the Bengals don't scout well, hence they draft bad and have no depth.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  14. #58
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    Some of what you say may be true. I especially agree on the TE. But have injuries, and maybe even age in some instances, also played into that "weakening"?

    And while I think there was some sort of "disconnect" between Carson and his receivers not always being on the same page - who do you blame? An individual player(s) or the offensive scheme?

    I don't know what you mean by inefficiency? If one looks at the major offensive stats, from overall offense, completion %, passing yardage total and per game, etc., the Bengals are right there hovering in the top 10.

    What has slid, and again it was due to injury IMO, was in the overall running game where they were bottom tier. If you have trouble running the ball, then the passing game suffers.

    Even in the Give Away/Take Away column they were 6th in the NFL at +6.

    And here is another "trinket" that came to me.....

    If it's going to be contended that it's simply the offensive scheme, meaning the talent is there; then couldn't the same possibly be asserted on the defensive side and why they fired Bresnahan? There is talent there; but the scheme is wrong.

    I will say this - what hurt the Bengals the most this season IMO is not their offense, but their defense. The Bengals scored; but sadly enough, so did their opponent (pts allowed). That is where their emphasis needs to be.

    Their offensive line did a good job in protecting Carson; but a very inconsistent job in opening holes for the running game.

    And on the defensive side, I really think losing Thurman and Pollack hurt them.

    It will be interesting as to what they will draft. LBers? Defensive or offensive linemen?
    Controlling possession is the key to winning in the NFL. I don't have numbers in front of me but it seemed to me that the Bengals offense didn't sustain enough possession because of a myriad of factors. Some of that, IMO, is based on the fact the Bengals vertical passing game is too risky for the reward. Talent does come into play also. The Bengals have not created a stable Oline that can control the ball on the ground.

    If you even take a look at the college title game you could see how a teams lack of sustained possession hinders the whole team. The Buckeyes were not able to sustain any long time drives and it affected the defense invariably. That's one of the main reasons that you rarely see a team win super bowls without controlling the clock and scoring. IMO the team with the most talent to never win a Super Bowl were the late 80's, early 90's Houston Oilers. Those teams relied too heavily on the offensive side of the ball and neglected the impact this had on the defense. It's common sense that a defense being on the field for way too long is devastating in post season games which are both high pressure and highly physical games.

    The Bengals were 25th this year and 27 last year in TOPG from NFL.com. Some of that is not being able to stop the run and some of that is inefficient offense, IMO.
    Last edited by Cedric; 01-25-2008 at 12:12 AM.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  15. #59
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    I'm not trying to flip flop here. In my earlier post I was stating that I believe the Bengals organization doesn't grasp how to allocate their resources to develop a winning team. That isn't even mentioning the fact that Marvin hasn't done even a decent job of constructing the most important part of a football team. He has completely messed up the Oline that was great and hasn't come close to putting together a Dline.

    Anyone with vision could see that the Bengals had issues with the age of Anderson and Braham. Marvin has focused early picks on replacements for each and yet hasn't created any stability. All of these problems come from the basic premise that the Bengals don't scout well, hence they draft bad and have no depth.
    Actually, I was the one stating that the problem was an allocation of resources issue (inability, failure for controllable and uncontrollable reasons), your stance was that the Bengals do not grasp the interaction of the O, D and teams to make a good franchise (ignorance and incompetence). It seems you might finally be grasping that you are grossly overstating your case at every turn.

  16. #60
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Actually, I was the one stating that the problem was an allocation of resources issue (inability, failure for controllable and uncontrollable reasons), your stance was that the Bengals do not grasp the interaction of the O, D and teams to make a good franchise (ignorance and incompetence). It seems you might finally be grasping that you are grossly overstating your case at every turn.
    You made a point I agreed with. I never once disagreed with you or started a pissing match about it. I realize you are looking for anything to bash me on and that's fine.

    What's the difference between grasping the interaction and actually producing it? Isn't my stating that the Bengals don't realize how to build all three components what I said? I would say you are right when you say incompetent. I think their drafting and overall usage of resources has shown their inability to grasp how to build a complete team.

    Honestly I don't care if the Bengals realize the importance of all three areas of the game. I just want to see them actually show me they realize it by their talent acquisitions. If it's semantics and you feel like you "caught" me than kudos.

    Maybe we should start a Bip Roberts/Traderumor vs Cedric thread and quit boring others.

    By the way for Bip... Why did you choose a user name like Bip Roberts? Do you call off work all the time and generally show a bad attitude and lack of work ethic?

    all in fun Bip. Don't get all feisty on me.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.


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