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Thread: I think we should trade palmer

  1. #61
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Bip Roberts is the best player in reds history thats why.

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  3. #62
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    The Bengals were 25th this year and 27 last year in TOPG from NFL.com. Some of that is not being able to stop the run and some of that is inefficient offense, IMO.
    I agree to a point Ced. But the difference in TOPG between the Bengals (25th) and the Steelers (1st) is 4 minutes/G. I don't know if that is a great disparity. Maybe. But the inability in having a consistent running attack is intrical to TOPG.

    This is why, IMHO, it's not about Carson Palmer (or his receivers). When a defense knows you are having problems running the ball, then they are going to adjust their scheme accordingly. Even when you have talented receivers as the likes of CJ and TJ. That "lack" in the running game is putting too much pressure on Carson and the receiving corp IMO.

    You did hit a "sore spot" for the Bengals in the TE position. A BIG sore spot. Reggie Kelley ain't it. 30th in the NFL with 20 receptions, 42nd in Yards/Games (14.1), 39th in Yards (211), 38th in Avg (10.5), and zero TDs. That is pitiful.

    Just as a comparison.... Cleveland's Winslow was 3rd in the NFL in Receptions (82), Yards/Game (69.1), and Yards (1106). 8th in Avg (13.5) and TDs (5).

    The Bengals and Browns also have "secondary" TEs in Coats and Heiden respectively; but their impact was pretty inconsequential overall.

    Bengal Passing stats.....

    ATT/G ... 35.9 (8th)
    AVG ...... 7.2 (10th)
    RATING .. 86.7 (10th)
    COMP % ... 64.9 (5th)
    PASSING ON 1ST DOWN ... 213 (4th). 37% (6th)

    Bengal Rushing stats....

    ATT/G .... 26 (23rd)
    AVG ...... 3.7 (28th)
    Running on 1ST DOWN).... 81 (24th). 19.5% (24th)

    The Bengals relied way too much IMO on the passing/receiving of Carson, CJ and TJ, to lead them to victory. That's predictability to a defense.
    Last edited by GAC; 01-26-2008 at 06:58 AM.
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  4. #63
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    I agree to a point Ced. But the difference in TOPG between the Bengals (25th) and the Steelers (1st) is 4 minutes/G. I don't know if that is a great disparity. Maybe. But the inability in having a consistent running attack is intrical to TOPG.

    This is why, IMHO, it's not about Carson Palmer (or his receivers). When a defense knows you are having problems running the ball, then they are going to adjust their scheme accordingly. Even when you have talented receivers as the likes of CJ and TJ. That "lack" in the running game is putting too much pressure on Carson and the receiving corp IMO.

    You did hit a "sore spot" for the Bengals in the TE position. A BIG sore spot. Reggie Kelley ain't it. 30th in the NFL with 20 receptions, 42nd in Yards/Games (14.1), 39th in Yards (211), 38th in Avg (10.5), and zero TDs. That is pitiful.

    Just as a comparison.... Cleveland's Winslow was 3rd in the NFL in Receptions (82), Yards/Game (69.1), and Yards (1106). 8th in Avg (13.5) and TDs (5).

    The Bengals and Browns also have "secondary" TEs in Coats and Heiden respectively; but their impact was pretty inconsequential overall.

    Bengal Passing stats.....

    ATT/G ... 35.9 (8th)
    AVG ...... 7.2 (10th)
    RATING .. 86.7 (10th)
    COMP % ... 64.9 (5th)
    PASSING ON 1ST DOWN ... 213 (4th). 37% (6th)

    Bengal Rushing stats....

    ATT/G .... 26 (23rd)
    AVG ...... 3.7 (28th)
    Running on 1ST DOWN).... 81 (24th). 19.5% (24th)

    The Bengals relied way too much IMO on the passing/receiving of Carson, CJ and TJ, to lead them to victory. That's predictability to a defense.
    Predictability was a problem. I think it's part scheme, part talent. The Bengals were definitely hurt by losing Braham and Steinbach from the line this year, along with some of the injuries/suspensions on offense. That, in turn, made deficiencies elsewhere all the more glaring. I think Reggie Kelly has always been more help in blocking rather than pass catching. However, they didn't need much pass catching from their TE when they had Chad, TJ, Henry, and Tab Perry, along with a solid running game with Rudi and either Watson or Chris Perry out of the back field. Throwing a lot of passes to the TE just wasn't a big part of the scheme.

    When they lost Tab Perry and Chis Perry to injury and Henry to suspension, that meant they were going to have to rely on Kelly in more of a pass catching role. Especially since the receivers the Bengals brought in to replace TP and Henry had bad cases of the dropsies. But Kelly either must not be that hot at pass catching or else they needed him to hold his blocks a little longer before releasing into his pattern on passing plays to help the OL. On running plays, the loss of Braham and Steinbach made the running game far less effective, forcing the Bengals into more passing plays. The end result was that Palmer had to force more throws to Chad and TJ.

    I think on offense they need to find some depth/upgrades on the OL, especially at C, and also pick up a pass catching TE. I think it's important because it gives the offense more options on passing plays, especially if your #3 receiver can't stay on the field because of behavioral problems and your #4 receiver is an injury risk.

    That being said, I'd still rather the Bengals focus their offseason efforts in upgrading the D first. Getting a few more stops on D might also help Palmer by taking some pressure off of him so that he no longer feels he has to win the game on his own.
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  5. #64
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Predictability was a problem. I think it's part scheme, part talent. The Bengals were definitely hurt by losing Braham and Steinbach from the line this year
    Wholeheatedly agree there. And we Brown fans thank you for Steinbach.

    I think Reggie Kelly has always been more help in blocking rather than pass catching. However, they didn't need much pass catching from their TE when they had Chad, TJ, Henry, and Tab Perry, along with a solid running game with Rudi and either Watson or Chris Perry out of the back field. Throwing a lot of passes to the TE just wasn't a big part of the scheme.
    Throwing a lot of passes to the TE may not be a part of the scheme; but don't you think it adds to the predictability, and that it should become a bigger part of that scheme?

    And I disagree Yachtzee that they didn't need it simply because they had Chad, TJ, and Henry (whom they didn't have for a good part of this season). I believe you need to have that diversity (or as you stated - options).

    Do you mean that at some point, before the injuries and suspensions, they didn't need it? But that has now changed?

    When they lost Tab Perry and Chis Perry to injury and Henry to suspension, that meant they were going to have to rely on Kelly in more of a pass catching role. Especially since the receivers the Bengals brought in to replace TP and Henry had bad cases of the dropsies. But Kelly either must not be that hot at pass catching or else they needed him to hold his blocks a little longer before releasing into his pattern on passing plays to help the OL. On running plays, the loss of Braham and Steinbach made the running game far less effective, forcing the Bengals into more passing plays. The end result was that Palmer had to force more throws to Chad and TJ.
    Again I agree. Especially the last statement (with the emphasis on "force"). There was just too much "pressure", or maybe reliance is the better word, on Palmer and your two "key" receivers to carry this team.

    That being said, I'd still rather the Bengals focus their offseason efforts in upgrading the D first. Getting a few more stops on D might also help Palmer by taking some pressure off of him so that he no longer feels he has to win the game on his own.
    Yep. And I stated that earlier. While their running game needs to be addressed, their main emphasis this off season should be on the defense.

    What is it with Cincy teams (Reds/Bengals) who have issues with defense and runs allowed?
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  6. #65
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    I cant wait till the browns go back to sucking next year. :o

  7. #66
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by Bip Roberts View Post
    I cant wait till the browns go back to sucking next year. :o
    Maybe you should be more concerned for your own team.

    But it's not like you haven't been wrong before.
    Last edited by GAC; 01-26-2008 at 12:55 PM.
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  8. #67
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    Maybe you should more concern for your own team.

    But it not like you haven't been wrong before.
    Im never wrong and I enjoy the miserable company.

  9. #68
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    Ben is younger and..... that's about it.
    Don't think much about hardware eh? He is also head and shoulders above Carson in Leadership.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    Comparing Ben to Carson year in and year out you won't find those numbers to be close. Ben has benefitted greatly from one of the best organizations in sports while Carson has languished with the worst franchise in sports.
    That is true. They are also perfect fits for the teams they play for. One is substance over style, smash-mouth, no nonsense TEAM driven, etc. The other is style over substance, a better Fantasy Football team. A Myriad of offensive weapons that can't even be the best team in its own state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    No scout or NFL coaching member would take Ben over Carson.
    Again, maybe in a Fantasy Football draft, but if you were building a franchise NFL team, you might be surprised.

    PEACE

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    I think that in a year or two, one of these guys - Frazier, Dorn, Valaika, Cumberland, Stubbs - will be ready to replace Dunn. They won't hit as many home runs as Dunn, but they should have similar OPS. - 757690, July 22, 2008

    Alonso will be playing 1B for the REDS and batting 4th one year from today. - Kingspoint, July 9, 2009

  10. #69
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Ben is head and shoulders above Carson in leadership? Also since when does rings mean you are a better player?

    and no NFL scout would take Ben over Carson

  11. #70
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by Bip Roberts View Post
    Ben is head and shoulders above Carson in leadership? Also since when does rings mean you are a better player?

    Not so much the hardware itself, but he's a Playoff-saavy veteran, at 25, and has put his team on his shoulders - and won - did you watch the 2005 playoffs? @ Bengals, @ Indy, @ Denver?

    He plays big in big games.

    Wake me the next time Palmer wins a playoff game, 'cause it will be the first.

    PEACE

    -BLEEDS
    I think that in a year or two, one of these guys - Frazier, Dorn, Valaika, Cumberland, Stubbs - will be ready to replace Dunn. They won't hit as many home runs as Dunn, but they should have similar OPS. - 757690, July 22, 2008

    Alonso will be playing 1B for the REDS and batting 4th one year from today. - Kingspoint, July 9, 2009

  12. #71
    On the brink of disaster acredsfan's Avatar
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by BLEEDS View Post
    He plays big in big games.
    Yeah, hence the worst QB rating in Super Bowl history. HE doesn't play big in big games, his defense and rushing cast play big in big games. Give me a break, when you pass 20 times a game you can't play "BIG". Yeah, as a Bengals fan I hate the Steelers, but they are a better team because they have the D and running game going. What do the Bengals have? A passing game, but even that suffers from the lack of the running game. In the NFL you have to be good at running the ball and defense. The passing game is somewhat of a luxury, it can make good Defenses and Running games better, but without the supporting phases it is useless.

    Carson is the better QB, no doubt. Give me what you want about the better leader and all, but put some of our players on the Steelers and you'd have the same problem. That's not Carson's fault, it's the organization.
    Last edited by acredsfan; 02-06-2008 at 03:36 PM.
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  13. #72
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by BLEEDS View Post
    Not so much the hardware itself, but he's a Playoff-saavy veteran, at 25, and has put his team on his shoulders - and won - did you watch the 2005 playoffs? @ Bengals, @ Indy, @ Denver?

    He plays big in big games.

    Wake me the next time Palmer wins a playoff game, 'cause it will be the first.

    PEACE

    -BLEEDS
    His career QB rating in the playoffs is 77.7 or something, and the D had much more to do with that super bowl than he did.

  14. #73
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Rudi Johnson is no joke. He always kills the Steelers. I don't think they know what to do with all those weapons/ego's, so they go for the Fantasy Stats.

    Neither of this years QB's in the Superbowl had huge QB ratings. Again, I don't care about QB ratings, I care about wins/losses. Managing and Leading a team ARE traits that don't show up in the stat book. That's the problem with today's "ratings", they don't look at intangibles, everything you want to say is "team based"...

    Sure the Steeler D is better than the Bengals. Maybe if you drafted/paid other positions instead of your Fantasy offensive studs, you'd be more balanced. That doesn't make your QB better because your team is worse.

    PEACE

    -BLEEDS
    I think that in a year or two, one of these guys - Frazier, Dorn, Valaika, Cumberland, Stubbs - will be ready to replace Dunn. They won't hit as many home runs as Dunn, but they should have similar OPS. - 757690, July 22, 2008

    Alonso will be playing 1B for the REDS and batting 4th one year from today. - Kingspoint, July 9, 2009

  15. #74
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Might was well put Ben in the hall of fame then.

  16. #75
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    Re: I think we should trade palmer

    Quote Originally Posted by Bip Roberts View Post
    His career QB rating in the playoffs is 77.7 or something.
    What is Carson's? He came up big (or went down hard, I can't remember.... in one game - or was it one pass? Kitna played marvelously though, actually MUCH better than Carson would have. Makes you wonder.

    BTW, I think Ben put a 145+ QB rating on the Bengals in the playoffs, and was over 100 for the full 2005 post season.

    PEACE

    -BLEEDS
    I think that in a year or two, one of these guys - Frazier, Dorn, Valaika, Cumberland, Stubbs - will be ready to replace Dunn. They won't hit as many home runs as Dunn, but they should have similar OPS. - 757690, July 22, 2008

    Alonso will be playing 1B for the REDS and batting 4th one year from today. - Kingspoint, July 9, 2009


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