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Thread: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

  1. #16
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    Look at the innings Cueto has thrown. Putting him in the bullpen would be a huge step backward in his development.
    Didn't seem to bother Wainwright.

    Cueto is a fastball/slider pitcher. Give him some experience, limit his workload while getting value.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

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  3. #17
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85 View Post
    couple of things

    IMHO, it is clear that Bailey needs to refine his command. Start the season at AAA

    I have posited the idea recently on this board of starting Cueto off in the bullpen. The Reds need another solid RHP in the pen(think it is highly likely Weathers is going to have a rough year). Cueto does not have the command issues that Bailey has demonstrated. It is a way to get his feet wet and limit his workload (very important).
    Cueto starting the season in the bullpen is the only youth movement I support.

    I don't consider Volquez as part of the youth movement, due to how Texas handled/treated him. Start him up in the rotation as the #4 and see if he can tread water.

  4. #18
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    In pitching there are WAY more failures at a young age then success.

    That's a bear trap of a plan.

  5. #19
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    Look at the innings Cueto has thrown. Putting him in the bullpen would be a huge step backward in his development.
    Earl Weaver must have been wrong then.

  6. #20
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    You want to take that chance?
    I said that it makes sense to keep them in the minors until they are ready.

    But I have heard so many remarks about why bringing them up is a bad idea:

    • Overthrow and hurt their arm
    • Overthrow and hurt their mechanics
    • Get caught up in "the life"
    • Mentally breakdown when they struggle


    Obviously bringing them up when they aren't ready isn't optimal. But I don't think it is the kiss of death for their careers.

    We went through this on another thread yesterday. Everyone was quick to bring up all the flamed out young studs. Everytime I brought up a young guy who succeeded, I was told that "they were ready." Even Bret Saberhagen, who pitched in a grand total of 27 games in the minors before getting called up. Somehow, 27 games is enough time to show that you are ready for the majors.

    If Homer goes crazy from being brought up too early, then he would have probably gone crazy at some point anyway.

  7. #21
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Promoting pitchers is like the opposite of trading established players; Better a year too late than a year too early. As for the bullpen notion, it's the answer to the question "What do we do with a guy who is too good to keep in AAA but not quite ready for the starting rotation in the majors". Johan Santana made the transition this way.

    Part of the concern with Cueto and Bailey is that a major league starting gig implies 30+ starts and more innings than they've ever pitched before. Getting them exposure to major league batters in the bullpen without the stress of a starting spot would be a good middle ground if you ask me.

    My biggest concern is that we go another year letting guys like Stanton, Majewski, and Affedlt take innings away from guys like Coffey, Coutlangus, and McBeth. We need to sort through those fringe guys and figure out who's worth keeping and who we should let move on. I'm already expecting Brad Salmon to be the next out-of-nowhere relief stud in San Diego.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 01-31-2008 at 01:47 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  8. #22
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    History is the study.

    History has shown that bringing pitchers up early highly correlates to ruined and or shortened careers.

    The pitchers that were brought up early and weren't impacted negatively are the exception to the rule, and they are few and far between.
    That's bogus.

    It's easy to point out examples of guys who didn't work out when they were brought up through the system. The population is very defined.

    Have you ever taken a look at young pitchers who weren't brought through the system quickly and flamed out? Maybe that stunted their growth.

  9. #23
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    No, it's criminal to assume that the team that has brought you Majewski, Coffey, Stanton, Belisle's last season, and some of the other Reds staff members will compete. They won't.

    A healthy Bailey and Volquez should start every fifth day. Don't let them throw too many pitches, but I don't see what AAA adds for them.

    Let Cueto break in as a middle reliever. Other teams do this. He had a lot of minor league innings last year, let him cut his teeth against the real competition.

    Let Maloney seriously compete for the fifth spot with Affeldt. Maloney has had a lot of minor league experience at this point. Maybe he succeeds maybe not, he's not going to be worse than last year's fifth spot, which didn't win a game until, I think, June.

    Let's get some real talent on the team.
    Belisle will be fine. He's a BOR unfortunately filling the #3 spot in our rotation until we get some real pitching around these parts. Once that happens, Belisle is a great #4 or #5.

    Majewski and Stanton are garbage, but that's a huge leap of faith to take to assume that some kid or any kid from our minors can live up to the garbage standards of Majewski and Stanton. While those two are certainly bad, the kids that aren't ready most certainly at best will be equal, but in all actuality will be worse due to you know, them not being ready.

    We'll use 2008 as a way to find out the real Coffey. We don't know who he is yet, and he probably doesn't either. If he pitches like Cordero or Burton or Weathers, great. If he doesn't, then we'll know so, and accordingly deal with him leading into 2009.

    2008 is a transition year. This team, given the personnel options in the organization is at best a .500 team. You're absolutely right we need to get some real talent on this team, but right now, those options aren't in-house. They need either at least another year to develop, or need to be obtained from other ballclubs.

    Bailey and Maloney should pitch every 5th day for Louisville this year until September. Let them be call ups, and get their feet wet then. 2009 is their year, not 2008.

  10. #24
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Majewski and Stanton are garbage
    and hoping for them to be anything other than is wishful thinking.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    History is the study.

    History has shown that bringing pitchers up early highly correlates to ruined and or shortened careers.

    The pitchers that were brought up early and weren't impacted negatively are the exception to the rule, and they are few and far between.
    What history? Show me.

    We're talking about a pitcher, Volquez, who dominated AAA last year; Bailey, who the Reds had in the majors last year; Maloney, who made it to AAA last year and has a lot of minor league innings; and Cueto, who is less experienced but has done well at every minor league level and is on the cusp of the major leagues anyway.

    All of these guys have meaningful minor league experience, none is a 19 year old kid.

    Isn't it time for this team to take some bold action to get better?

    Let's get some arms up here, not the same re-cycled mess.

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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Belisle will be fine. He's a BOR unfortunately filling the #3 spot in our rotation until we get some real pitching around these parts. Once that happens, Belisle is a great #4 or #5.

    2009 is their year, not 2008.
    Respectfully, your view that Belisle is a "great #4 or #5", I guess, sums up the difference between us.

  13. #27
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    As for the bullpen notion, it's the answer to the question "What do we do with a guy who is too good to keep in AAA but not quite ready for the starting rotation in the majors". Johan Santana made the transition this way.
    and Liriano as well.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  14. #28
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    That's bogus.

    It's easy to point out examples of guys who didn't work out when they were brought up through the system. The population is very defined.

    Have you ever taken a look at young pitchers who weren't brought through the system quickly and flamed out? Maybe that stunted their growth.
    What argument are you trying to make here?

    It sounds like you're saying that the majority of young arms don't have long success at the MLB, regardless of how much time they spent in the minors. If that's the case, then I partially agree with you. Making a long MLB career as a starting pitcher is probably one of the least certain events in the cosmos.

    As long as a kid is given ample opportunity to let his body mature, and then hone his craft (command, control, all the fun pitching buzzwords), the greater the chance for that kid to go on and have a long MLB career. If you bring a kid up before his body is ready, or before his mind is ready, or before his mechanics are ready, or he can't find the strikezone when he wants, then you're just setting the kid up for disaster.

  15. #29
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Respectfully, your view that Belisle is a "great #4 or #5", I guess, sums up the difference between us.
    A complete disregard of any meaningful examination of his statistics?
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


  16. #30
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    What history? Show me.

    We're talking about a pitcher, Volquez, who dominated AAA last year; Bailey, who the Reds had in the majors last year; Maloney, who made it to AAA last year and has a lot of minor league innings; and Cueto, who is less experienced but has done well at every minor league level and is on the cusp of the major leagues anyway.

    All of these guys have meaningful minor league experience, none is a 19 year old kid.

    Isn't it time for this team to take some bold action to get better?

    Let's get some arms up here, not the same re-cycled mess.

    Career IP in AAA

    Bailey: 67.1
    Cueto: 22.0
    Maloney: 17.0
    Volquez 171.2

    Sorry KC, but only Volquez has the equivilent of even 1 season in AAA. Bailey has less than half and Cueto and Maloney have 3 and 4 starts respectively. I agree that guys who succeed in AAA should be moved up, but only Volquez has pitched in AAA long enough to have any real impression of how well he did. It's not like they're developed and are would be retracing their steps in Louisville.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.


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