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Thread: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

  1. #31
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    I worry about the workload of early 20s pitchers, especially those with command issues. Neither Bailey or Cueto should be allowed to throw more than 180IP this year.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

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  3. #32
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85 View Post
    I worry about the workload of early 20s pitchers, especially those with command issues. Neither Bailey or Cueto should be allowed to throw more than 180IP this year.
    Dave Fleming and Jose Rosado are fine examples

  4. #33
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    What history? Show me.

    We're talking about a pitcher, Volquez, who dominated AAA last year; Bailey, who the Reds had in the majors last year; Maloney, who made it to AAA last year and has a lot of minor league innings; and Cueto, who is less experienced but has done well at every minor league level and is on the cusp of the major leagues anyway.

    All of these guys have meaningful minor league experience, none is a 19 year old kid.

    Isn't it time for this team to take some bold action to get better?

    Let's get some arms up here, not the same re-cycled mess.
    Taking bold action to get better would have been trading Bailey for Haren.

    Taking bold action to get better would have been trading Bailey for Bedard.

    Putting a 5th grader that isn't Doogie Howser into HS will only lead to him getting his butt kicked. We saw that with Bailey last year, why do we want to see him get his 6th grade butt kicked in HS this year?

    I'm on my lunch break, so I'll have to get back to you on the list of failed pitchers over the course of baseball history due to being brought up too soon/early.

  5. #34
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Have you ever taken a look at young pitchers who weren't brought through the system quickly and flamed out? Maybe that stunted their growth.
    I think that the better counterargument to "coddle thy pitchers" is one that I call "you'd better get it while you can." If pitchers have only a certain number of pitches before arm injury, why stash them in the minors for a long time?


    back to thread title: pitchers have to debut at some point, but I think that counting on many at once is a bad idea. Young pitchers are more likely to fail badly than even bad veterans are.

  6. #35
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    command issues bother me a lot more than level. Bailey demonstrated the problem at both AAA and the majors last year. Volquez was borderline but took a huge step forward at AA/AAA/MLB last year. He would seem to be ready for success at the MLB level is he can improve his command another notch.

    Volquez is the perfect example of a guy with command issues who was rushed and set up for failure. It seems like the Rangers finally figured that out in 2007.
    Last edited by flyer85; 01-31-2008 at 01:59 PM.
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  7. #36
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Belisle should be in the rotation.

    I'm not hot on the idea of burning the pre-arb years of three essentially rookies who are all likely to struggle at the same time.

    Seems like a recipe for disaster to me.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  8. #37
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Respectfully, your view that Belisle is a "great #4 or #5", I guess, sums up the difference between us.
    You can't fill your rotation with 1s, 2s, and 3s. Would be great if you can, but it doesn't happen.

    Teams need 4s and 5s, and Belisle is at worst a 5.

  9. #38
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    That's bogus.
    No, it's completely factual, but you feel free to pretend otherwise.
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  10. #39
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    Belisle should be in the rotation.

    I'm not hot on the idea of burning the pre-arb years of three essentially rookies who are all likely to struggle at the same time.

    Seems like a recipe for disaster to me.
    I think you're right. Absent signing another veteran starter, I think you explore a rotation of Harang, Arroyo and Belisle at the top, see if Affeldt is effective in the rotation and if he is, then finish it out with Volquez. If Bailey or Cueto blow you away in Spring, then you move Affeldt to the pen.

    And if I'm a Riverbats fan, I'm liking the starting pitcher down there too.
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  11. #40
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Taking bold action to get better would have been trading Bailey for Haren.

    Taking bold action to get better would have been trading Bailey for Bedard.

    Putting a 5th grader that isn't Doogie Howser into HS will only lead to him getting his butt kicked. We saw that with Bailey last year, why do we want to see him get his 6th grade butt kicked in HS this year?

    I'm on my lunch break, so I'll have to get back to you on the list of failed pitchers over the course of baseball history due to being brought up too soon/early.
    To be fair, Bailey is old enough to be in 4th grade and some of us just want to see him pass the middle school entrance exam before he starts his freshman year. It's not that we want him on the same track as everybody else his age, we just don't want him to skip the major milestones.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  12. #41
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    I honestly wouldn't mind this

    Harang, Arroyo, Belisle, Volquez, Maloney/Affeldt

    Cordero, Weathers, Cueto, Bray, Coffey, Burton, TBD
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  13. #42
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    I think that the better counterargument to "coddle thy pitchers" is one that I call "you'd better get it while you can." If pitchers have only a certain number of pitches before arm injury, why stash them in the minors for a long time?
    This is a fair point, but which do you think is more likely to lead to injury: struggling in the majors or dominating in the minors? Not every inning pitch is created equal. Just ask Bailey... And I don't think you can call asking guys to throw 1 season in AAA before making the big league rotation as "stashing" them in the minors.

    I personally open the year with: Harang, Arroyo, Belisle, Volquez, Affeldt and promote from the Maloney/Bailey/Cueto pool as soon as the need arises (which I assume will be quickly) and they are showing that they are ready to be successful above AAA. Short of an injury, nobody gets promoted before May 1.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 01-31-2008 at 02:07 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  14. #43
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    What history? Show me.

    We're talking about a pitcher, Volquez, who dominated AAA last year; Bailey, who the Reds had in the majors last year; Maloney, who made it to AAA last year and has a lot of minor league innings; and Cueto, who is less experienced but has done well at every minor league level and is on the cusp of the major leagues anyway.

    All of these guys have meaningful minor league experience, none is a 19 year old kid.

    Isn't it time for this team to take some bold action to get better?

    Let's get some arms up here, not the same re-cycled mess.
    KC I agree with you on this topic with one exceptoin. I start Maloney in AAA and have Affeldt and Belisle battle for the last start in the rotation. I also saw enough in Bailey last season to believe that he belongs in the bigs instead of AAA. I know about Belisle being unlucky but IMO he isn't one of the best 5 options the reds have. I would be disappointed if he blocked a guy like Bailey, Volquez, or Cueto from getting the ball every 5th day.

  15. #44
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I don't think you can call asking guys to throw 1 season in AAA before making the big league rotation as "stashing" them in the minors.
    .
    as the coiner of "coddle thy pitchers", you can understand what side I'd be on

    but I can see why a team might want to stash a player in the minors because they're trying to time their prospects. I think that's a bad idea-- hitters need to be challenged to reach their ceilings, and pitchers shouldn't be sandbagged or else you're liable to watch their arms blow up before you get anything out of them.

  16. #45
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitching -- Let's promote the prospects

    The chances of Bailey putting up comparable numbers to Belisle's 2007 are very slim IMO.

    Certainly not worth burning pre-arb years unless he absolutely kicks the door down the first two months of the season while pitching in AAA.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun


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