saved syringes for seven years to set up Clemens?
some weird stuff, that
saved syringes for seven years to set up Clemens?
some weird stuff, that
Or kept intentionally to extort the hush money that Clemens didn't pay. As Fearofpop points out, it seems that his "evidence" could be easily manufactured if there were really B12 shots (maybe for the same reason). While I'm inclined to think Clemens used at some point, I don't know how he could be convicted on the basis of that evidence. I know if I were on a jury, I'd have too many doubts about its validilty.
It seems that congress has better things to do and as a taxpayer I would rather my money go toward studying reproduction in gnats than this sordid mess. Time for the commissioner to quietly (not publicly) ask Clemens, Bonds and the rest to fade away in McGwire like fashion and for Baseball to move on. You would think the players would want that and the union would agree and would approve stronger policies to make congress go away.
Fix the present and put the past in the past.
All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/07/sp...ts&oref=sloginFebruary 7, 2008
McNamee’s Evidence Would Be Hard to Date
By MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT
The syringes, vials and gauze pads that Brian McNamee has turned over to federal investigators to back up his contention that he injected Roger Clemens with steroids and human growth hormone will be the subject of a strenuous attack if they enter the courtroom, according to medical and legal experts.
Scientific experts said there was no known method to date steroids or human growth hormone.
The syringes, vials and gauze pads are said to date from 2000 and 2001, part of a four-year period in which McNamee contends he gave Clemens drug injections. But even if the physical evidence tests positive for Clemens’s DNA and, say, steroids, Clemens’s lawyers could argue that McNamee added steroid traces to the original evidence in a bid to incriminate Clemens, experts say.
“You can test to figure out what the substance is, but you cannot figure out how old it is,” Dr. Don Catlin, the former director of the Olympic testing lab at U.C.L.A., said in a telephone interview.
There is no way to date blood either, Catlin said, which means there may not be a conclusive way to establish that the syringes, vials and pads were from 2000 and 2001.
This sounds to me as if none of this material would hold up as real evidence in a court of law, once the experts explain why, as above.
Fitting punishment for both of these guys would be to spend 6 months in the same jail cell, together again!
Honestly as a Canadian and no I am not flag waving. This whole thing is quite pathetic. What is the point of it ? Reversed gambling bets, reversing who wins world series, we all know that will not happen. So in the big picture this is a whole posturing over events that will not change. Huge I mean Huge waste of time. Of course it may add fuel to the fire for Redsox fans versus the Yankee's and that in itself seems to be what MLB baseball revolves around, good god how pathetic is that ?
2006 Redzone mock Draftee's- 1(st) Daniel Bard(redsox), 1(st sup)( Jordan Walden (Angels), 2(nd) rd.- Zach Britton(Orioles), 3(rd) Blair Erickson(Cardinals), 3(rd) Tim Norton( Yankees),(cuz its a Tim Hortons thing
Pain heals. Chicks dig scars. Glory... lasts forever.
If B-12 and lidocaine were all that was in the needles, why would he have saved them?
We'll go down in history as the first society that wouldn't save itself because it wasn't cost effective ~ Kurt Vonnegut
we've no indication of extortion, including the taped recordings that Clemens' side set up-- Clemens made no attempt to get extortion language out of McNamee, which is telling. Also, Clemens' side seems genuinely shocked at this development.
IMO, McNamee's just plain weird. I'll bet he collects follicles, toenail clippings, sweaty
towels.
besides, we're not trying to convict him for jail. We're curious as to whether there's good reason to believe that the best pitcher of our time got a little chemical aid. It's gone from he said/he said to possible physical evidence, which would mean that Clemens' performances are tarnished. It's a tragedy for the game, and Clemens would look like Rafael Palmeiro on, well, steroids.
Last edited by princeton; 02-07-2008 at 08:21 AM.
Well, when you're engaged in an activity you know is illegal, you might keep physical evidence around to give you some leverage in case the person you are dealing with decides to turn you in. Say, for example, the Feds decided that they were going to target the trainers and persons who supplied athletes with the PEDs instead of the athletes. If Roger Clemens decides to "cooperate" with the Feds, telling them that McNamee was trying to push PEDs on him but he refused, McNamee has physical evidence that would discredit Clemens as a witness. People save all kinds of weird stuff. I mean, who would have thought Monica Lewinsky would keep a stained dress around and wouldn't wash it?
McNamee was a trainer for a major league ballclub. I suspect that if you took a good look into the background of current and former trainers and clubbies in major league clubhouses, you'd find that many of them do a lot of questionable things for the players they work for. Many of them earn a good percentage of their living off of what they can do for the players and I'm sure some of them have been willing to get involved with PEDs because some player wanted them, even though its illegal without a prescription. I suspect these guys don't feel like they're "dealers," but they don't want some player painting them that way if the player gets caught.
Wear gaudy colors, or avoid display. Lay a million eggs or give birth to one. The fittest shall survive, yet the unfit may live. Be like your ancestors or be different. We must repeat!
I would think this evidence is only as good as the weakest link in the chain of custody. The weak link would likely be McNamee himself. If he is lying abour Clemens repeated usage, then he could have fabricated this evidence. Presumably he had sole possession of this evidence for the last seven or eight years....
That being said, I still beleive McNamee, and I think this "evidence" helps his side.
What if the 'evidence' wasn't a syringe, but Clemens fingerprints on the vial of some type of PED? What if he had an audio tape of Clemens talking about PED usage? We will see....
__________________
"I think we’re starting to get to the point where people are starting to get tired of this stretch of ball,” Votto said. “I think something needs to start changing and start going in a different direction. I’m going to do my part to help make that change.”
dp
Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David
I agree with all you say, and I also believe McNamee. I don't think he has any reason to lie at this point.
He got snagged when Radomski called him out to Mitchell; and Andy Pettite corroborated his part of McNamee's story. Wonder what he told the feds the other day about what he knew concerning Clemens, or if they even asked him?
Very weird of McNamee to save the "evidence." Maybe he always knew this time just might come?
At any rate, Clemens reputation is wrecked from here on out, IMO.
If McNamee did save syringes filled with traces of both Winstrol and the Rocket's DNA, then he clearly did it because deep down he knew what he was doing was wrong and his conscience forced him to keep them in case he ever mustered the courage to do the right thing.
Kudos for the courage of McNamee to stand up for justice and all at a time when he has nothing to gain by his actions. Kudos. You're a real warrior poet.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
Last edited by Team Clark; 02-07-2008 at 11:13 AM.
Cedric 3/24/08It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
Cedric 3/24/08It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
If the history of congress/steroids has shown us anything, it's that due process and innocent until proven guilty are not standards that congress holds itself too. This whole debacle is absolutely ridiculous in my mind. Where is Shawn Merriman? Where is Rodney Harrison?
This is senators puffing up their chests and making themselves look important to boost their chances of reelection. It makes me sick.
Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.
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