Joe Torre the player was extremely underrated. Over 18 years, his 162 game average was .297/.365/.452 with 18 homer's and 87 rbi's. He won one MVP award in 71, and finished in the top 5 another year. Was voted to NINE All Star teams, won a Gold Glove, and batted .363 in his MVP year to lead the league in BA. Not bad stats at all for a guy that will go down as being remembered as the captain of the Yankees ship, not as a very good, if not great, player.
And yet, Beltre isn't. He's put up a total of -11.0 (negative) Runs Above Position from 2005 to 2007. Even if we were to trust Justin's specious defensive Runs analysis for 2007, the combination of Beltre's bat (+3.1 RAP during his best offensive season with the M's) and glove (+5.7 Runs) leaves us with a player worth less than a full win versus your average MLB 3B.Originally Posted by jojo
"The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer
"The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
--Ted Williams
Agreed. Beltre makes some truly spectacular plays with the leather, but, on some days, his head just isn't in it. His range is wholly holey, depending on want-to. And his bat is the epitome of average.
To say Beltre is close to Dunn is laughable.
Your mind seems to be made up but things like environment, league, position and defense are important considerations in discussions like this one.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
I think you left out the "he's on my favorite team" factor
Beltre is on jojo's favorite team also.I think you left out the "he's on my favorite team" factor
Yea, that is what I was referring to.Beltre is on jojo's favorite team also.
Just seems to me you're judging Beltre and EE by some radically different standards, jojo.
The contract makes the decision a no-brainer, but even if they were making the same cash, I'd STILL take EE over Beltre.
So would I.
EdE is underrated IMO. He's already a good player but I think he's going to be a lot better this year and beyond.
EE's bat is fine, but he still needs to make some strides with his defense.
I thought he made absolutely stupendous strides defensively last season. His range is absolutely incredible and the throwing errors have decreased dramatically.
Getting him away from Jerry Narron has done wonders for this kid.
Using that metric, Dunn has obviously been a below average player for 2 of the 3 years spanning '05-'07. He's had RAPs of 0 for both '05 and '06. Despite the arguments over Dunn's defensive worth, surely no one would argue he's been a neutral defender. Really the only question for those years is how much below average his defense made him.
Last year Dunn had a RAP of 25. Advanced defensive metrics suggest that would basically make him .5 to 1 win above average-in one of his best offensive seasons. A charitable estimate that his defense was only -10 would make him only 1.5 wins above average.
Basically RAP makes a case for Dunn being terribly overrated.
EDIT: BP's website isn't playing nice with my browser right now and I'm not sure these RAPS are correct.
Last edited by jojo; 02-11-2008 at 09:11 PM.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
When have I ever been slow to be critical of the Ms?Beltre is on jojo's favorite team also.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
When you just woke up probably.
I agree that he improved a whole lot last year in the second half.... but he needs to continue that trend before his defense can be considered as something that doesn't hurt his overall game.
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