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Thread: Overrated/Underrated

  1. #46
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Joe Torre the player was extremely underrated. Over 18 years, his 162 game average was .297/.365/.452 with 18 homer's and 87 rbi's. He won one MVP award in 71, and finished in the top 5 another year. Was voted to NINE All Star teams, won a Gold Glove, and batted .363 in his MVP year to lead the league in BA. Not bad stats at all for a guy that will go down as being remembered as the captain of the Yankees ship, not as a very good, if not great, player.

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  3. #47
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Of course not. They also paid him to be one of the best defenders at his position.
    And yet, Beltre isn't. He's put up a total of -11.0 (negative) Runs Above Position from 2005 to 2007. Even if we were to trust Justin's specious defensive Runs analysis for 2007, the combination of Beltre's bat (+3.1 RAP during his best offensive season with the M's) and glove (+5.7 Runs) leaves us with a player worth less than a full win versus your average MLB 3B.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

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  4. #48
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Agreed. Beltre makes some truly spectacular plays with the leather, but, on some days, his head just isn't in it. His range is wholly holey, depending on want-to. And his bat is the epitome of average.

    To say Beltre is close to Dunn is laughable.

  5. #49
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    I know that when I'm building a team, I'll take the career .900 OPS hitter over the guy with a .786 OPS. Adrian Beltre coudn't carry Adam Dunn's jockstrap.
    Your mind seems to be made up but things like environment, league, position and defense are important considerations in discussions like this one.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  6. #50
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Your mind seems to be made up but things like environment, league, position and defense are important considerations in discussions like this one.
    I think you left out the "he's on my favorite team" factor

  7. #51
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I think you left out the "he's on my favorite team" factor
    Beltre is on jojo's favorite team also.

  8. #52
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Beltre is on jojo's favorite team also.
    Yea, that is what I was referring to.

  9. #53
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Just seems to me you're judging Beltre and EE by some radically different standards, jojo.

    The contract makes the decision a no-brainer, but even if they were making the same cash, I'd STILL take EE over Beltre.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


  10. #54
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    The contract makes the decision a no-brainer, but even if they were making the same cash, I'd STILL take EE over Beltre.
    So would I.

    EdE is underrated IMO. He's already a good player but I think he's going to be a lot better this year and beyond.

  11. #55
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    EE's bat is fine, but he still needs to make some strides with his defense.

  12. #56
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    EE's bat is fine, but he still needs to make some strides with his defense.
    I thought he made absolutely stupendous strides defensively last season. His range is absolutely incredible and the throwing errors have decreased dramatically.

    Getting him away from Jerry Narron has done wonders for this kid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


  13. #57
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    And yet, Beltre isn't. He's put up a total of -11.0 (negative) Runs Above Position from 2005 to 2007. Even if we were to trust Justin's specious defensive Runs analysis for 2007, the combination of Beltre's bat (+3.1 RAP during his best offensive season with the M's) and glove (+5.7 Runs) leaves us with a player worth less than a full win versus your average MLB 3B.
    Using that metric, Dunn has obviously been a below average player for 2 of the 3 years spanning '05-'07. He's had RAPs of 0 for both '05 and '06. Despite the arguments over Dunn's defensive worth, surely no one would argue he's been a neutral defender. Really the only question for those years is how much below average his defense made him.

    Last year Dunn had a RAP of 25. Advanced defensive metrics suggest that would basically make him .5 to 1 win above average-in one of his best offensive seasons. A charitable estimate that his defense was only -10 would make him only 1.5 wins above average.

    Basically RAP makes a case for Dunn being terribly overrated.

    EDIT: BP's website isn't playing nice with my browser right now and I'm not sure these RAPS are correct.
    Last edited by jojo; 02-11-2008 at 09:11 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  14. #58
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Beltre is on jojo's favorite team also.
    When have I ever been slow to be critical of the Ms?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  15. #59
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    When have I ever been slow to be critical of the Ms?
    When you just woke up probably.

  16. #60
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    I thought he made absolutely stupendous strides defensively last season. His range is absolutely incredible and the throwing errors have decreased dramatically.

    Getting him away from Jerry Narron has done wonders for this kid.
    I agree that he improved a whole lot last year in the second half.... but he needs to continue that trend before his defense can be considered as something that doesn't hurt his overall game.


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