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Thread: Overrated/Underrated

  1. #61
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    And to take it a step further, how about historically speaking? Granted, at 22 years old I haven't been around very long to judge anyone from before this era, so my insight wouldn't be so sharp there, but do any names stick out for some of the rest of you?
    Let's see if we can actually bring this thread back to being interesting rather than turning it into another Dunn thread ...

    My off-the-top-of-my-head All-Time Overrated Team ...

    C: Ivan Rodriguez
    1B: Gil Hodges
    2B: Red Schoendienst
    3B: Brooks Robinson
    SS: Ozzie Smith
    LF: Jim Rice
    CF: Kirby Puckett
    RF: Roberto Clemente
    SP: Nolan Ryan

    And now the All-Time Underrated Team ...

    C: Mike Piazza
    1B: Jeff Bagwell
    2B: Bobby Grich
    3B: Heinie Groh
    SS: Barry Larkin
    LF: Three guys tied: Jimmy Sheckard, Sherry Magee, and Fred Clarke
    CF: Jimmy Wynn
    RF: Al Kaline
    SP: Tom Seaver ... with Honorable Mention to Bert Blyleven because the BBWAA is full of clowns
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

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  3. #62
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    Let's see if we can actually bring this thread back to being interesting rather than turning it into another Dunn thread ...

    My off-the-top-of-my-head All-Time Overrated Team ...

    C: Ivan Rodriguez
    1B: Gil Hodges
    2B: Red Schoendienst
    3B: Brooks Robinson
    SS: Ozzie Smith
    LF: Jim Rice
    CF: Kirby Puckett
    RF: Roberto Clemente
    SP: Nolan Ryan

    And now the All-Time Underrated Team ...

    C: Mike Piazza
    1B: Jeff Bagwell
    2B: Bobby Grich
    3B: Heinie Groh
    SS: Barry Larkin
    LF: Three guys tied: Jimmy Sheckard, Sherry Magee, and Fred Clarke
    CF: Jimmy Wynn
    RF: Al Kaline
    SP: Tom Seaver ... with Honorable Mention to Bert Blyleven because the BBWAA is full of clowns
    Thanks a lot for your insight... and for steering the topic back on course

  4. #63
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Clemente? Clemente? I think that might be the first overrated list he has ever been included. Honestly, that is one of the most ludicrous suggestions, with Ryan a close second. Ryan was simply dominating and pitched on some really bad teams most of his career. He obviously was simply unhittable many nights. And it wasn't just number 1, but he could snap off a nasty number 2 that made things not even fair. But putting Clemente on an overrated list is close to saying you don't believe Barry Bonds' head is bigger.

  5. #64
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Clemente? Clemente? I think that might be the first overrated list he has ever been included. Honestly, that is one of the most ludicrous suggestions, with Ryan a close second. Ryan was simply dominating and pitched on some really bad teams most of his career. He obviously was simply unhittable many nights. And it wasn't just number 1, but he could snap off a nasty number 2 that made things not even fair. But putting Clemente on an overrated list is close to saying you don't believe Barry Bonds' head is bigger.

    I think these inclusions on overrated lists are defensible especially Ryan. Don't get me wrong. They're both hall-of-famers. But Ryan was more intimidating than he was effective. He had a lot more bad nights than less flashy guys like Tommy Glavine and Greg Maddux had in their primes (more nights when he could walk 5 or 10 guys). As evidenced by his 7 no-hitters, there were times when he was untouchable, but there are NUMEROUS smaller-name, less flashy pitchers who I would rather call on in a must-win game.

    Clemente was 4-tool player with numerous good offensive seasons and few great ones. He only had 3 years of .400 on base percentage, 3 years of 100+ runs scored, and 3 years of of 100+ rbis. While I realize this was a pitcher's era, these are not the types of corner outfielder numbers that scream first-ballot-hall-of-famer.

    Many people remember him as fast, but he never stole more than 12 bases in a year.

    He had SIX YEARS with more than 10 errors in right field. I'm not a big fan of fielding percentage, but a .972 career FP in the outfield is really, really bad. Adam Dunn is at .969 in LF as a matter of comparison.

    Granted, he threw a lot of guys out, electrifying crowds with his arm, and was apparently a great humanitarian.

    He should be in the HOF, but the uproar over his being left off the all-century team was unwarranted (thus, I think he's overrated).

    I'd rather have Bobby Abreu's best 10 years than Clemente's. And when I talk about Abreu going into the hall, I usually am met with a roll of the eyes.

    p.s. good call on Bobby Grich. People who saw him play never thought they were watching a hall of famer. Same with Blyleven, but it's hard to argue their numbers relative to their positions.
    ". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008

  6. #65
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post

    4) Dwight Evans: One of the greatest defensive right fielders ever and also had 385 HR's to go along with it. I think an argument can be made the he is just as HOF worthy as Jim Rice is but Evans never made it.
    Uh...I tend to disagree. I won't go into my personal experience with Dwight Evans, but I believe he was a bit over-rated. He had a great arm, but he was hesitant, or at least played it safe, on balls hit directly at him. I suspect it was a depth perception problem, but he was not the great defensive outfielder on balls hit directly at him. He had a very good arm, but I believe it was a bit over-rated by the Boston media. He was not an instinctive player, but he improved in his thirties when he learned a few of the nuances of the game.

    Rice was really a better hitter. He was a .290 hitter with several years over or near the forty homerun total while Evans was a .270hitter with twenty homer power.
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  7. #66
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    Let's see if we can actually bring this thread back to being interesting rather than turning it into another Dunn thread ...

    My off-the-top-of-my-head All-Time Overrated Team ...

    C: Ivan Rodriguez
    1B: Gil Hodges
    2B: Red Schoendienst
    3B: Brooks Robinson
    SS: Ozzie Smith
    LF: Jim Rice
    CF: Kirby Puckett
    RF: Roberto Clemente
    SP: Nolan Ryan

    And now the All-Time Underrated Team ...

    C: Mike Piazza
    1B: Jeff Bagwell
    2B: Bobby Grich
    3B: Heinie Groh
    SS: Barry Larkin
    LF: Three guys tied: Jimmy Sheckard, Sherry Magee, and Fred Clarke
    CF: Jimmy Wynn
    RF: Al Kaline
    SP: Tom Seaver ... with Honorable Mention to Bert Blyleven because the BBWAA is full of clowns
    I am curious as to why you have Piazza on your underrated list? I kinda lean to him being overrated simply because yes he was an outstanding hitting catcher but a disaster behind the plate. However year in and year out he seemed to be made out to be the best at his position.

    Also I am curious about Seaver being underrated. IIRC Tom Terrific did get the most votes ever for HOF induction so he had to be thought of as pretty good by the sports writers anyway.

    Good call on Bobby Grich though!!
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  8. #67
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Using that metric, Dunn has obviously been a below average player for 2 of the 3 years spanning '05-'07. He's had RAPs of 0 for both '05 and '06. Despite the arguments over Dunn's defensive worth, surely no one would argue he's been a neutral defender. Really the only question for those years is how much below average his defense made him.

    Last year Dunn had a RAP of 25. Advanced defensive metrics suggest that would basically make him .5 to 1 win above average-in one of his best offensive seasons. A charitable estimate that his defense was only -10 would make him only 1.5 wins above average.

    Basically RAP makes a case for Dunn being terribly overrated.

    EDIT: BP's website isn't playing nice with my browser right now and I'm not sure these RAPS are correct.
    Um, actually, I wasn't making a case for Dunn. However, your edit was a good catch. From 2005 through 2007, Dunn has been worth 63.5 RAP. Here's how the 2007 LF familiar faces stack up:

    Holliday: 97.1 RAP
    Manny: 91.2
    Bonds: 85.0 (Out most of 2005)
    Bay: 70.1
    Dunn: 63.5
    Burrell: 60.1
    Alou: 55.3 (RF 2006)
    Soriano: 48 (2B 2005)
    Carlos Lee: 41.4
    Matsui: 35.7 (Out more than half of 2006)
    Bradley: 29.2 (RF '06, CF '05, injuries and Milo issues)
    Crawford: 28.6
    Ryan Church: 23.9
    Ibanez: 22.5 (DH '05)
    Luis Gonzalez: 2.5
    Eric Byrnes: -13.1 (CF '06)
    Garret Anderson: -26

    Sorry about the formatting. I tried to use the Code wrap, but it just wasn't working out. Now, it's obvious that Bonds has been the king of LF offense over the past three years, but we pretty much need to pull him out of the equation for 2008. Holliday reigns after that, but his Home/Away splits are extremely pronounced for his career (1.087 OPS at Coors, .781 OPS on the Road). The humidor doesn't appear to hurt him. It's just that everywhere else appears to. Next are Manny, Bay, and Burrell with old man Moises pulling up the rear in the 50+ RAP group. There isn't a single one of those guys I'd want in LF on my team in 2008 over Dunn.

    In the next tier we have Soriano (who'd be lower in the RAP list had he played LF in 2005), the dramatically overrated Carlos Lee, and Matsui- who's nickname really should be "Godzuki" rather than "Godzilla". After that, we have Milton Bradley. Jeez, his name is fun, but I don't want that guy anywhere near my favorite team at any cost. Hello, Carl Crawford. Oh, how I wish you could take a Walk. I actually like Ryan Church, consider him to be "sleeper-type" underrated due to his overall game and would love to see how he'd do outside of pitchers' parks. I'd really like the Reds to target a guy like Church; who does everything pretty well and at a low cost. And props to Raul Ibanez for even making the list.

    Moving on, Luis Gonzalez has been pretty much the epitome of league average offensively since 2005. Eric Byrnes might have the goods defensively, but the guy's ceiling over the past three seasons was a 2007 6.4 RAP and his floor in 2005 of -19.8 RAP. Do Not Want.

    And then we have my own personal "Mr. Overrated", Garret Anderson. The guy is a case study as to why a team shouldn't pay a player millions for nothing more than reputed RBI acquisition ability. He's the more modern version of Joe Carter. It's...like...scary.
    Last edited by SteelSD; 02-12-2008 at 12:02 AM.
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  9. #68
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball View Post
    Uh...I tend to disagree. I won't go into my personal experience with Dwight Evans, but I believe he was a bit over-rated. He had a great arm, but he was hesitant, or at least played it safe, on balls hit directly at him. I suspect it was a depth perception problem, but he was not the great defensive outfielder on balls hit directly at him. He had a very good arm, but I believe it was a bit over-rated by the Boston media. He was not an instinctive player, but he improved in his thirties when he learned a few of the nuances of the game.

    Rice was really a better hitter. He was a .290 hitter with several years over or near the forty homerun total while Evans was a .270hitter with twenty homer power.

    Evans hit more HR's from 1980-1989 (256) than any other player in the AL. He also won eight Gold Gloves to go with his .272 avg 385 HR's and 1,385 RBI's. I didnt see enough of him to play to comment on his fielding but to win eight Gold Gloves he had to be doing something right.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  10. #69
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Just off the top of my head...

    Underrated:

    Dale Murphy. From 1980 through 1987, this guy was forming a Hall of Fame entry ballot. And then he fell off a cliff. Too bad, because in his prime, he was fearsome.

    Jack Clark. Oh, if he could have been healthy he'd have been a possible HOF candidate.

    Rob Dibble. It's like he made a deal with the Devil to help the Reds get their last WS ring. For a short time (too short) he was the most dominant short Reliever ever.

    Al Kaline. Yes, he's in the Hall of Fame, but do folks understand exactly how good he really was? From age 20 to age 37, he produced an OPS+ under 120 exactly twice. During that same period, he also struck out more than he walked also twice.

    Tim Raines. The only negative thing that can be said about him is that he wasn't Rickey Henderson.

    Marvin Miller. Deserves Hall of Fame inclusion more than any baseball Commissioner who's ever been enshrined.

    Overrated:

    Thurman Munson. It was incredibly sad that his career ended in such a tragic fashion. That being said, if he didn't wear Yankee pinstripes we wouldn't be hearing, to this day, that he should be in the Hall of Fame.

    Ichiro Suzuki. Don't even get me started.

    Bill Mazerowski. He's the definitive proof that we need an entity other than the Veteran's Committee to dictate Hall of Fame enshrinement. Mazerowski did exactly one thing. One. Incredibly, he played 17 seasons and 8,379 Plate Appearances without ever producing a single-season OPS+ above 98 (career of 84). Yeah, it's the Hall of "Fame", but Mazerowski didn't do anything more famous than anyone else who's won a WS or playoff game. He just did it on camera earlier than most. If there's a low bar for the Hall, that's Mazerowski.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  11. #70
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Wow, Steel, I'd love to hear why you feel Ichiro is underrated... His defense is outstanding... his base-running is excellent... what part of his game do you dislike?
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
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  12. #71
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    I can see the argument for Ichiro being overrated. The year he won the MVP, there were probably 10 or 20 players in the AL who I'd have rather had.

    That being said, he's on pace to be a Hall-of-Famer (once he puts in his 10 years), and there isn't a single player out there who I'd rather watch play baseball.

    Clemente was overrated. Pete Rose was overrated. But they were good enough to be Hall of Famers and were never dull. Ditto Ichiro.
    ". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008

  13. #72
    Smells Like Teen Spirit jmcclain19's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    Wow, Steel, I'd love to hear why you feel Ichiro is underrated... His defense is outstanding... his base-running is excellent... what part of his game do you dislike?
    It always bothers me about Ichiro that the story that always seems to circulate around him that states that "he could hit HRs if he wanted to but he chooses not to". I've heard Mike Hargrove, Bill Bavasi, and countless Ms fans spout this wisdom - which is about as big a pile of baseball mularkey as you can come up with.

    That being said - I totally agree with CC - if I were to name the top five guys I would happily pay money to watch play baseball, Ichiro is easily in that list.

  14. #73
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    I was going to include Ichiro on my list, but felt that he's probably not too overrated since he plays in Seattle. I would love it if he were on the Reds, but he's sure not a top 5 player like some would have you believe.
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  15. #74
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Agreed, but not being a top five player is different than being overrated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


  16. #75
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcclain19 View Post
    It always bothers me about Ichiro that the story that always seems to circulate around him that states that "he could hit HRs if he wanted to but he chooses not to". I've heard Mike Hargrove, Bill Bavasi, and countless Ms fans spout this wisdom - which is about as big a pile of baseball mularkey as you can come up with.
    yes. and if I recall correctly, Ichiro started believing the hype a few years back, when he got bored with M's losing and went into a late season slump trying to hit homers.

    Apparently Ty Cobb used to say the same thing too... once Ruth popularized the home run, he was convinced he could hit that way, but chose not to.

    I'm not saying that Ichiro is in Cobb's class (relative to each's peers of their respective eras), but he's the closest comp I can think of.
    ". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008


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