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Thread: Overrated/Underrated

  1. #76
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    Agreed, but not being a top five player is different than being overrated.
    some people think he's the best player in the game and I'm not kidding. Listen to XM, they love him.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

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  3. #77
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    some people think he's the best player in the game and I'm not kidding. Listen to XM, they love him.
    I gotcha.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
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  4. #78
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcclain19 View Post
    It always bothers me about Ichiro that the story that always seems to circulate around him that states that "he could hit HRs if he wanted to but he chooses not to". I've heard Mike Hargrove, Bill Bavasi, and countless Ms fans spout this wisdom - which is about as big a pile of baseball mularkey as you can come up with.

    That being said - I totally agree with CC - if I were to name the top five guys I would happily pay money to watch play baseball, Ichiro is easily in that list.
    I hear that all the time as well. If he could hit homers, he wouldn't be hitting singles. It's just bunk.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

  5. #79
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by cincinnati chili View Post
    I think these inclusions on overrated lists are defensible especially Ryan. Don't get me wrong. They're both hall-of-famers. But Ryan was more intimidating than he was effective. He had a lot more bad nights than less flashy guys like Tommy Glavine and Greg Maddux had in their primes (more nights when he could walk 5 or 10 guys). As evidenced by his 7 no-hitters, there were times when he was untouchable, but there are NUMEROUS smaller-name, less flashy pitchers who I would rather call on in a must-win game.

    Clemente was 4-tool player with numerous good offensive seasons and few great ones. He only had 3 years of .400 on base percentage, 3 years of 100+ runs scored, and 3 years of of 100+ rbis. While I realize this was a pitcher's era, these are not the types of corner outfielder numbers that scream first-ballot-hall-of-famer.

    Many people remember him as fast, but he never stole more than 12 bases in a year.

    He had SIX YEARS with more than 10 errors in right field. I'm not a big fan of fielding percentage, but a .972 career FP in the outfield is really, really bad. Adam Dunn is at .969 in LF as a matter of comparison.

    Granted, he threw a lot of guys out, electrifying crowds with his arm, and was apparently a great humanitarian.

    He should be in the HOF, but the uproar over his being left off the all-century team was unwarranted (thus, I think he's overrated).

    I'd rather have Bobby Abreu's best 10 years than Clemente's. And when I talk about Abreu going into the hall, I usually am met with a roll of the eyes.

    p.s. good call on Bobby Grich. People who saw him play never thought they were watching a hall of famer. Same with Blyleven, but it's hard to argue their numbers relative to their positions.
    This seems to be turning into a problem of what folks mean by overrated. It seems that if one is a legitimate HOFer, while that is not the ultimate measure of individual standing for comparative purposes, it seems ludicrous to say they were overrated. In other words, it is some hair splitting over superlatives, and disagreement over whether a guy was indeed super duper great or just super great, or maybe just great. Putting Clemente and Ryan on "overrated" and Seaver as "underrated" as Cyclone did certainly begs the question of what rating system one is using.

  6. #80
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Bill Mazerowski. He's the definitive proof that we need an entity other than the Veteran's Committee to dictate Hall of Fame enshrinement. Mazerowski did exactly one thing. One. Incredibly, he played 17 seasons and 8,379 Plate Appearances without ever producing a single-season OPS+ above 98 (career of 84). Yeah, it's the Hall of "Fame", but Mazerowski didn't do anything more famous than anyone else who's won a WS or playoff game. He just did it on camera earlier than most. If there's a low bar for the Hall, that's Mazerowski.
    By the Mazeroski measuring stick, Joe Carter should be in the Hall.

  7. #81
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    I am curious as to why you have Piazza on your underrated list? I kinda lean to him being overrated simply because yes he was an outstanding hitting catcher but a disaster behind the plate. However year in and year out he seemed to be made out to be the best at his position.

    Also I am curious about Seaver being underrated. IIRC Tom Terrific did get the most votes ever for HOF induction so he had to be thought of as pretty good by the sports writers anyway.

    Good call on Bobby Grich though!!
    I put Piazza on the underrated list because people oftentimes don't understand the magnitude of how much greater as a hitter he was than any other catcher. Bench (and many others) blow him away defensively, and I'd take Bench overall over Piazza because of that, but Piazza was quite easily the greatest hitting catcher ever. Piazza probably is a top two or three catcher of all-time, but I'm thinking history won't put him that high, hence being underrated.

    I put Seaver on that list because, IMO, he was likely the greatest pitcher the game had seen from the time Lefty Grove retired until the time Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux came up (and depending on how you rank Clemens now due to his "other" circumstances opens up another can of worms). That's a period of 40-50 years right there; that's impressive, yet few people likely realize it. Unfortunately, guys like Koufax, Gibson, Ryan, etc. seem to get more recognition than Seaver, yet Seaver was simply a greater pitcher than those guys. Spahn may have an argument over Seaver, but I'd still take Seaver.
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  8. #82
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    Wow, Steel, I'd love to hear why you feel Ichiro is underrated (actually, overrated)... His defense is outstanding... his base-running is excellent... what part of his game do you dislike?
    I actually don't dislike any part of Suzuki's game. He does many things well and has one super-freaky skill set.

    Yet others have noted, I do dislike the idea that Suzuki can do absolutely anything he wants to offensively. He can't. He won't walk and basically feels that doing so is a waste of his time. And yet, it's really not his choice. He just can't do it, which is another pretty severe limitation for someone who's supposed to be able to do anything he wants.

    I have absolutely no complaints about his glove or baserunning however.

    Let's see...what else...

    Oh, he churned an international hype machine into an MVP award over at least one more deserving teammate in 2001. Then there's my own pet peeve..."Ichiro" on the back of the jersey. If any other MLB player did that he'd get fined. It's not a cultural item. He uses his first name to get more attention. Regardless of what he got away with in Japan, I've always felt that taking the field for his first MLB game with his first name on the back of his jersey demonstrated a profound lack of respect for the game. It annoys me to no end and I refuse to use only Suzuki's first name in any discussion.

    Suzuki is an excellent player and he's fun to watch. It's just that he hasn't, for me, ever lived up to his hype.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

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  9. #83
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Overrated - 50's baseball History - NYC centric to the core, even to today, Costas, Crystal.... YAWN.... I'm tired of the press that still comes out of that era, one big love fest of a bygone era.

    Underrated - 70's Baseball History - Bullpen carts with hats, ugly uniforms, plastic grass and the San Diego Chicken... and that's just touching the items not playing the game.

  10. #84
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    This seems to be turning into a problem of what folks mean by overrated. It seems that if one is a legitimate HOFer, while that is not the ultimate measure of individual standing for comparative purposes, it seems ludicrous to say they were overrated. In other words, it is some hair splitting over superlatives, and disagreement over whether a guy was indeed super duper great or just super great, or maybe just great. Putting Clemente and Ryan on "overrated" and Seaver as "underrated" as Cyclone did certainly begs the question of what rating system one is using.
    I guess it depends on the frame of the discussion. Nolan Ryan, for example, is a legitimate Hall of Famer. But I don't think he's a viable contender when people debate Best Pitcher Ever, so to the extent he's brought up in those conversations more than he should be (IMO), that would bring to mind the dreaded "overrated." But like you said, it's just parsing superlatives.
    Not all who wander are lost

  11. #85
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Oh, he churned an international hype machine into an MVP award over at least one more deserving teammate in 2001. Then there's my own pet peeve..."Ichiro" on the back of the jersey. If any other MLB player did that he'd get fined. It's not a cultural item. He uses his first name to get more attention. Regardless of what he got away with in Japan, I've always felt that taking the field for his first MLB game with his first name on the back of his jersey demonstrated a profound lack of respect for the game. It annoys me to no end and I refuse to use only Suzuki's first name in any discussion.
    Dislike Vida Blue for the same reason?
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

  12. #86
    Member chicoruiz's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Scarily enough, I think Albert Pujols may be underrated, even though he's acknowledged as the best player in the NL. Let's put it this way: He's at least 95% of the player A-Rod is; is he 95% as well-known?
    "In baseball, you don't know nothin'"...Yogi Berra

  13. #87
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by chicoruiz View Post
    Scarily enough, I think Albert Pujols may be underrated, even though he's acknowledged as the best player in the NL. Let's put it this way: He's at least 95% of the player A-Rod is; is he 95% as well-known?
    Well, probably not, but A-Rod's been doing it longer, plus some of A-Rod's extra positive attention came originally from doing it as a SS. Also, Pujols doesn't get the negative attention A-Rod gets, so using "well-known" as the measure isn't the whole story.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

  14. #88
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Overrated - 50's baseball History - NYC centric to the core, even to today, Costas, Crystal.... YAWN.... I'm tired of the press that still comes out of that era, one big love fest of a bygone era.

    Underrated - 70's Baseball History - Bullpen carts with hats, ugly uniforms, plastic grass and the San Diego Chicken... and that's just touching the items not playing the game.
    Watching the '75 Series recently, a big deal was made because someone refused the ride in the cart. Maybe they could have a race with a vintage bullpen cart and Todd Coffey between innings this year?

  15. #89
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by chicoruiz View Post
    Scarily enough, I think Albert Pujols may be underrated, even though he's acknowledged as the best player in the NL. Let's put it this way: He's at least 95% of the player A-Rod is; is he 95% as well-known?
    Underrated and "acknowledged as the best player in the NL" is a contradiction in terms.

  16. #90
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Overrated/Underrated

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Underrated and "acknowledged as the best player in the NL" is a contradiction in terms.
    I disagree. Best player in the NL is accurate, but fails to capture the degree of his performance to date. Here are his top 5 career comps through age 27 courtesy of Baseball Referene.

    1. Joe DiMaggio (878) *
    2. Jimmie Foxx (875) *
    3. Ken Griffey (874)
    4. Frank Robinson (871) *
    5. Hank Aaron (864) *

    There's "best guy in the league right now" and then there's "on pace for one of the greatest careers of all-time". Those are hardly the same thing.

    I haven't seen anybody mention Ron Santo yet. He's there with Blyleven in my book as the biggest HoF snubs.

    Another guy who simply doesn't get the props he deserves is Frank Thomas. Yes, I know he has zero defensive value, but wow, was he an amazing hitter. Take a look at his 1994 season: .353/.487/.729. For his career, .300+ BA, 500+ HR, and more BBs than Ks. Just wow.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.


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