Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 35

Thread: need over talent

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    princeton, nj
    Posts
    9,482

    need over talent

    I have always been fascinated by the strategic thinking of the Krivsky FO, and by its self-discipline to stick by that strategic thinking. The main thinking is to fill need and to manage payroll both short and long-term, sometimes at the expense of talent

    Take the very first trade: WMP for Arroyo. WMP was a tough one to surrender-- his ceiling was MUCH higher than Arroyo's -- and moreover Arroyo seemed in decline. But the Reds OF was its surplus, its pitching in shambles, and the Reds held to their strategy. And in this case, the correct soldier was enlisted, and the correct one was mustered out.

    it's been similar since then. Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez were the most talented parts of a big trade for need-- cheap, young, ready relievers.

    Longterm, cheap pitching will always be a need (or at least is always easy to trade to fill other needs). And because we are willing to deal more talent to fill needs, we often demand that the other team kick in a cheap young arm (Daryl Thompson, Daniel Herrerra), preferably one with a lot of options, who might be useful later. Bowden always had to get more than the other guy up front, so that he could crow publicly, and traded off young arms to get that done.

    Biggest offseason acquisitions are no longer high profile 5-tool OFers as Bowden would have acquired regardless of need. Instead, we grab a middle defender because we have no defense, and a closer because we have no bullpen. Highly logical moves.

    Josh Hamilton, an immense talent, was dealt for a bigger need: young, cheap pitcher.

    Bowden had to "win" all deals, talent-wise. Often he did, without actually helping improve the team very much. Krivsky seems compelled to address the next shortcoming and is willing to come up far short in the talent department.

    We have even seen the "need" approach at the organizational level, where the biggest needs have been filled in two consecutive drafts: defenders at CFer and catcher, preferably those with power potential, righthanded bats, and speed, were the need going in. Voila-- we essentially traded our drafting position to fill those needs in Drew Stubbs and Devin Mesoraco. Probably these were not the best available players at those particular draft slots, and we acted with self-discipline to ignore some prettier players. I have to admit that I don't particularly admire drafting for greatest need over greatest talent, particularly in a draft where picks can't be dealt. I mean, when you apply the principle of need over talent at this level, it doesn't seem to be just a philosophy for this front office-- it's bordering on an obsessive compulsive disorder.

    And finally, remember how Bowden had to grab talent as soon as it appeared, had to fill all roster spots, couldn't drop anyone, and as a result ran out of money early in the year, had players running out of options, and kept whining about the trades that he could have made if only the budget were higher and the players that he couldn't keep because he couldn't clear the roster-- like it was all such a complete surprise to him that he was in this mess that he was supposedly overseeing?

    Krivsky always seems to save a bit of money for a rainy day, his players have options, he doesn't let contracts almost expire until he finally unloads them, and he doesn't seem to try to stash players. I'm sure that the ownership change helps, but doubt that's all of it.
    Last edited by princeton; 03-03-2008 at 07:22 PM.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Newport Beach, CA
    Posts
    8,066

    Re: need over talent

    Interesting view point. Good post.

    Rem

  4. #3
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    portland, oregon
    Posts
    14,747

    Re: need over talent

    I think that's a good analysis.

    Krivsky's approach, when viewed at the micro-level, obviously leaves him open to criticism, some more warranted than others, but in the end I think he's added more talent than he's given up without squandering any of the top minor league prospects that now seem poised to provide positive contributions at the major league level.

    His style isn't sexy and he's not going to wow you with charm and charisma (that's that Dusty fellows job now...keep forgetting his last name....anyway....) but given the state of the franchise when he arrived I think he's done a pretty decent job.

    I would like to add that IMO this spring is a "bell weather" moment for Krivsky. Who goes north with the team will really determine whether Wayne indeed "gets it" in my mind. The inclusion of Stanton and Castro on the opening day roster will certainly be hard for me to swallow but I have confidence they won't make the team. I'll keep my fingers crossed anyway.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  5. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Newport Beach, CA
    Posts
    8,066

    Re: need over talent

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    The inclusion of Stanton and Castro on the opening day roster will certainly be hard for me to swallow but I have confidence they won't make the team. I'll keep my fingers crossed anyway.
    The inclusion of Stanton, Castro and now Patterson and Hairston would mean that you would choak to death before anyone around you could think of the Heimlich maneuver much less perform it.

    Rem

  6. #5
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    portland, oregon
    Posts
    14,747

    Re: need over talent

    Quote Originally Posted by remdog View Post
    The inclusion of Stanton, Castro and now Patterson and Hairston would mean that you would choak to death before anyone around you could think of the Heimlich maneuver much less perform it.

    Rem
    If the 4 of those guys are on the 25 man roster come opening day then even I won't defend Krivsky anymore. There's no way those 4 guys are better than the other options in camp. I guess I could stomach Patterson as a 5th OF but that's about it.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  7. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    indiana
    Posts
    1,227

    Re: need over talent

    Corey Patterson will likely be the Reds opening day centerfielder. Juan Castro could well be the starting shortstop.

  8. #7
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    West N. Carolina
    Posts
    55,710

    Re: need over talent

    Quote Originally Posted by indy_dave00 View Post
    Corey Patterson will likely be the Reds opening day centerfielder. Juan Castro could well be the starting shortstop.
    And be batting 1 and 2 in your lineups.
    Go Gators!

  9. #8
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,815

    Re: need over talent

    Quote Originally Posted by indy_dave00 View Post
    Corey Patterson will likely be the Reds opening day centerfielder. Juan Castro could well be the starting shortstop.
    If that is indeed the case, they should play Taps before the game instead of the National Anthem.

  10. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Posts
    4,250

    Re: need over talent

    Quote Originally Posted by indy_dave00 View Post
    Corey Patterson will likely be the Reds opening day centerfielder. Juan Castro could well be the starting shortstop.


    Good lord there are a bunch of miserable pessimistic SOBs on this site lately. Patterson is being brought in on a minor league contract. He won't be starting, much less batting leadoff.

    I swear some of you guys could win the lottery and still find time to complain about how it would increase your taxes.

  11. #10
    So long old friend rotnoid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati,Ohio
    Posts
    1,264

    Re: need over talent

    Nice job, princeton. I, for one, never really thought about it that way too much. Guess I got used to the "hey, I've got his baseball card" effect when JimBo pulled off a trade. I'm getting more and more used to the "I wonder what this guy's numbers in the minors look like" and "what's his K/9?" I must say, so far, this seems to be working slightly better and should produce a few exciting seasons over the next few years. More importantly though, I think finally the pieces are in place to make a big deal in July, if need be. The prospects in this system should allow Krivsky to be in on all the talks, not just the bargain ones.
    I'm just like everybody else. I have two arms, two legs and 4,000 hits."

    -Pete Rose

  12. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    princeton, nj
    Posts
    9,482

    Re: need over talent

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve4192 View Post


    Good lord there are a bunch of miserable pessimistic SOBs on this site lately. Patterson is being brought in on a minor league contract. He won't be starting, much less batting leadoff.
    you know that the minor league contract is a procedural thing at this point in camp. 40 man roster is full, and early March is a bad time to waive players. Also, if someone gets hurt between now and opening day, that player can go to the 60 day DL and open up a spot.

    Patterson will be on the 25 man by opening day. He does, after all, fill a need
    Last edited by princeton; 03-04-2008 at 08:56 AM.

  13. #12
    Member Spitball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    5,626

    Re: need over talent

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton
    I have always been fascinated by the strategic thinking of the Krivsky FO, and by its self-discipline to stick by that strategic thinking. The main thinking is to fill need and to manage payroll both short and long-term, sometimes at the expense of talent.
    Very well said.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  14. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Posts
    4,250

    Re: need over talent

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    Patterson will be on the 25 man by opening day.
    I have no problem with that. Patterson can be a useful defensive replacement, pinch runner, and occasional starter in day games after night games. As long as he is in that role, he will be a useful spare part.

    There is no reason to believe he will be starting on opening day.

  15. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    princeton, nj
    Posts
    9,482

    Re: need over talent

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve4192 View Post
    There is no reason to believe he will be starting on opening day.

    Reds have always needed a defender between Jr and Dunn, and that becomes more of a priority particularly if they're now forced to surrender defense at shortstop. So there's reason to believe.

  16. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    princeton, nj
    Posts
    9,482

    Re: need over talent

    Quote Originally Posted by rotnoid View Post
    I think finally the pieces are in place to make a big deal in July, if need be. The prospects in this system should allow Krivsky to be in on all the talks, not just the bargain ones.

    Krivsky also usually has budget left to pull off a trade for a contract.

    It would really help if one of the home-grown Reds pitchers (Cueto or Bailey or even Roenicke) would break through early. Until that happens, all of our pitching prospects carry the Made-By-Yugo stigma.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25