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Thread: Aggressiveness

  1. #1
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    Aggressiveness

    Here's something I've noticed in todays game. I might do some research to see if it really is a trend or just a random outlier. If it's actually a trend, this might ruin the Red's hitting. It's definety Dusty's doing.

    Here are 1st pitch hits/outs in todays game.

    3/5 in 1st
    3/4 in 2nd
    4/6 in 3rd
    5/8 in 4th
    3/5 in 5th
    3/3 in 6th
    3/5 in 7th
    3/3 in 8th
    4/4 in 9th

    A hitter has put the ball in play somehow in 31/43 chances (72&#37 on the very 1st pitch. If it's Baker telling players to swing at the 1st pitch and be more aggressive, that can be a disaster. What this does is lower the pitch count of the opposing pitcher, letting him stay in the game longer, and be more effective. It's also going to lower OBP skills tremendously. It's definitely a very interesting observation that should be followed.
    Last edited by mlbfan30; 03-07-2008 at 04:33 PM.

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  3. #2
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    Re: Aggressiveness

    I think it's hard to comment on that not seeing what the pitches were that they swung at. In spring training especially, I'd imagine pitchers are throwing more strikes instead of trying to nip the corners. Maybe all those pitches were fastballs in the middle of the plate?
    "The Hall of Fame is there to keep alive the memory of people. You don't need to do that with people like Buck [O'Niel] and Joe [Nuxhall]. Nobody's forgetting those guys."

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    Re: Aggressiveness

    you also may want to look at the runs per game they've been putting up!

    Dusty haters are gettin old quick!

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    Re: Aggressiveness

    color me a dusty hater extrordinaire. the man is moron.

    if he shows me that (1) he will not wear out the arms of homer bailey and johnny cueto and (2) that he will bench corey patterson if he puts up an OBP of .300-.320 then i will gladly change my tune. I guarantee you that he will do one or both of these things.
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  6. #5
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    Re: Aggressiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by mroby85 View Post
    you also may want to look at the runs per game they've been putting up!

    Dusty haters are gettin old quick!
    I'm hoping you aren't saying the Reds runs scored performance in 9ST games should make so-called Dusty haters rethink. Especially when they have always scored runs and they have allowed the same number as they have scored so far. Color me skeptical
    More often than not, when someone is telling me a story all I can think about is that I can't wait for them to finish so that I can tell my own story that's not only better, but also more directly involves me.

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    Re: Aggressiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephenk29 View Post
    I think it's hard to comment on that not seeing what the pitches were that they swung at. In spring training especially, I'd imagine pitchers are throwing more strikes instead of trying to nip the corners. Maybe all those pitches were fastballs in the middle of the plate?
    YEAH.... THE REDS put the ball in play to make an out or hit on the FIRST PITCH in 72% of the batters TODAY. Doesn't that look very odd?

    ~It appears there may be a reason for this, but I think I might investigate it farther by looking at every other ST game and (hopefully) compare it to last year's ST games. That should give some type of control for a proper study.
    Last edited by mlbfan30; 03-07-2008 at 04:45 PM.

  8. #7
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    Re: Aggressiveness

    What I always found depressingly hilarious about Baker's so-called philosophy is that he was always lamenting the high pitch counts of Cubs pitchers. It's killing us, he'd say. We need out pitchers to go deeper in the game, he'd say. Our bullpen is so overworked, he'd say. All because those darn opposing hitters wouldn't be more aggressive like they're supposed to. Gee, genius, you think it might hurt THEIR pitchers if WE'd work the count a little? I sincerely don't think he's ever made that connection. It's going to be a long long long three years. And the Dusty lovers will get funnier and funnier, as they twist themselves into pretzels defending him.
    FIRE DUSTY Never mind. The man is clearly a genius.

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    Re: Aggressiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by mlbfan30 View Post
    YEAH.... THE REDS put the ball in play to make an out or hit on the FIRST PITCH in 72% of the batters TODAY. Doesn't that look very odd?
    That does look odd, but I HIGHLY doubt Dusty Baker told the team to swing at the first pitch. He may have said be aggressive, but Dusty is a former MLB player and now a manager. I think he understands how to hit and get on base more than a lot of people give him credit for. No coach from little league up to MLB is going to tell his team to swing at the first pitch 3/4 the time they come up to bat. If I'm wrong Ill swallow my tongue and write letters to Krivsky to fire Dusty while he still can, but I really doubt that's what's going on. Look I'm not a huge fan of Dusty at this point either, but I think we're starting to look for things that just aren't really there.

    You've got a grand total of 31/53 going there. 58% are going for hits...not bad.
    Last edited by Stephenk29; 03-07-2008 at 04:49 PM.
    "The Hall of Fame is there to keep alive the memory of people. You don't need to do that with people like Buck [O'Niel] and Joe [Nuxhall]. Nobody's forgetting those guys."

    - Joe Posnanski

  10. #9
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    Re: Aggressiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephenk29 View Post
    That does look odd, but I HIGHLY doubt Dusty Baker told the team to swing at the first pitch. He may have said be aggressive, but Dusty is a former MLB player and now a manager. I think he understands how to hit and get on base more than a lot of people give him credit for. No coach from little league up to MLB is going to tell his team to swing at the first pitch 3/4 the time they come up to bat. If I'm wrong Ill swallow my tongue and write letters to Krivsky to fire Dusty while he still can, but I really doubt that's what's going on.
    Just like no GM would ever tell an entire minor league system to take the first pitch of every single at-bat?
    FIRE DUSTY Never mind. The man is clearly a genius.

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    Re: Aggressiveness

    Each Hitter is different has has different approaches. Instead of saying... "I want everyone to be more aggressive, you can't look for a walk and you should never allow a called 3rd strike happen," which he basically has said.

    He needs to be more like, "I hope to maximize every hitter's skill set at the plate and improve in areas of weakness. I'll try to help them find their most comfortable approach and fit it into the team's overall style we are trying to accomplish" That means maybe helping BP become more patient, but also accepting a free swinging approach by helping him make better contact. It means telling Votto that he should continue his approach that's made him good but also think about being more aggressive with 2 strikes. ETC

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    Re: Aggressiveness

    Dusty is going to kill the future of this team. He doesn't seem to understand that you need players on the base paths to score. We have great patient hitters on our team (Hatteburg, Dunn, Votto) and they are productive because they get on base, not because they're putting the ball in play (Look at Dunn. Our most productive player who has a batting average around .250 year in and year out, but gets 100 walks).

    Not only that... but he's going to ruin Bailey and Cueto's arms. If he ever plays them that is.

    Dusty is the wrong person at the wrong time.

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    Re: Aggressiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by Natty Redlocks View Post
    Just like no GM would ever tell an entire minor league system to take the first pitch of every single at-bat?
    Although I think that is retarded, you could see where there is potentially some logic in there. Telling a player to swing at the first pitch nearly every time is a lot more extreme.
    "The Hall of Fame is there to keep alive the memory of people. You don't need to do that with people like Buck [O'Niel] and Joe [Nuxhall]. Nobody's forgetting those guys."

    - Joe Posnanski

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    Re: Aggressiveness

    First of all, this might be the smallest sample size ever used, 15 batters. But there is trend, so I see your point.

    However, hitting the first pitch is not a sin. It is sin if you do it regardless of the pitch. But most major leaguers swing at the first pitch if they believe it will be the best pitch they see in the at bat. That is why players usually have their best at bats when they swing at the first pitch. The league avg is around a .350 OBP and a .550 SLG.
    So the real stats to look at is how many times a team hit s the first pitch in play, and what is the teams OBP and SLG when they do.

    If you read what Baker has been saying about aggressiveness is that he wants his hitters to be smarter, not just more aggressive. When Brandon Webb is pitching, you want to swing early, since you are pretty much dead if he gets two strikes on you, but if Jason Marquis is pitching, you want to take as many pitches as you can, since he can be wild. It is all about being smart.

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    Re: Aggressiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by mlbfan30 View Post
    you should never allow a called 3rd strike happen," which he basically has said.
    If this much were true I would have no problem with that. You get on base more often by getting a hit than walking. You have to swing the dang thing sometimes, and a strike out looking is probably the most worthless out you can make in baseball.
    "The Hall of Fame is there to keep alive the memory of people. You don't need to do that with people like Buck [O'Niel] and Joe [Nuxhall]. Nobody's forgetting those guys."

    - Joe Posnanski

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    Re: Aggressiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by mlbfan30 View Post
    Each Hitter is different has has different approaches. Instead of saying... "I want everyone to be more aggressive, you can't look for a walk and you should never allow a called 3rd strike happen," which he basically has said.

    He needs to be more like, "I hope to maximize every hitter's skill set at the plate and improve in areas of weakness. I'll try to help them find their most comfortable approach and fit it into the team's overall style we are trying to accomplish" That means maybe helping BP become more patient, but also accepting a free swinging approach by helping him make better contact. It means telling Votto that he should continue his approach that's made him good but also think about being more aggressive with 2 strikes. ETC

    I agree with the second part, but the first part is not accurate. He has told Votto, and Votto alone that he wants him to be more aggressive. Votto agreed with him, and said that he is always more patient at the beginning of Spring Training, and gets more aggressive as he gets more comfortable.

    Baker did not say "I want everyone to be more aggressive, you can't look for a walk and you should never allow a called 3rd strike happen,"

    He said he hates a called third strike and I think everyone does, he said he doesn't want his middle of the lineup guys to look for a walk with RISP.


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